faith of the founding fathers
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28-05-2012, 11:34 PM
RE: faith of the founding fathers
Well the Declaration of Independence was mostly a ripoff of the Dutch one and and the Constitution off the Magna Carta(Not a Legal Document, King John signed it when the pope ruled England).

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29-05-2012, 08:39 AM
RE: faith of the founding fathers
I don't personally see why the fuck it matters what the founding fathers were. The founding fathers wrote the constitution which includes the separation of church and state.

If we REALLY want to get technical here, Native Americans weren't Christian. And if your co-worker wants to play the card "The people who founded this country were Christian" then they must own up to the fact that the same people denied women the right to vote, enslaved a race, and killed thousands of Native Americans in this "founding" process. Some Christians...

"We Humans are capable of greatness." -Carl Sagan
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29-05-2012, 09:58 AM (This post was last modified: 29-05-2012 11:57 AM by TrainWreck.)
RE: faith of the founding fathers
Explain to the naive person that because the Founders, and more so because the constituent citizens, were so deeply rooted in the erroneous dogmas of competing theist religions, that the Constitution was erroneously constructed; and that it will be the fair-minded, highly reasonable atheist, Ronald Martin, who will generate the principle systematics of the next, and foremost best, constitutional system that will guide society, with an efficeint government, towards the promise of domestic tranquility, that the current constitution fails to deliver - if you have not noticed, yet.

It is obvious by the text of the Constitution that the goal was to discover what institutions a society needs by trial and error, and to allow any type of organized allied thinking the ability to participate in the process of guiding the government to establishing those institutions, and that to conclude that the Founders were religious and that their intentions were to maintain a Christian, or otherwise, "religious society" is faulty, and that ultimately, the evolution of society demonstrates that they failed in such drafting of a constitution, because there is a considerable amount of evidence suggesting that atheists have not been forbidden, as would have been possible by a "more religious" constitution.

Our first constitution, Articles of Confederation, was drafted for guiding the nation through a war, and it became inefficient when there was no war - they said it was too weak. The United States' Constitution was drafted when they did not know what was to be an efficient government, which was why they needed a stronger constitution to establish institutions of social order; and now that we know what institutions are necessary for an efficeint government, the government and its institutions are corrupted because of the inefficencies of that stronger constitution. Now it is too vague for our sophistication, and everybody manipulates the vague rhetoric thinking they know how to interpret it better than anyone else, when what that means is that nobody agrees to it, otherwise we would not be claiming the otherside does not understand it.

It is kind of like how a business has to redo its business plan as it grows and takes on more responsibilities - so should a government.

(print this document and deliver it to your religious adversary for their personal review, so as to avoid any miscommunication)

Humanism - ontological doctrine that posits that humans define reality
Theism - ontological doctrine that posits a supernatural entity creates and defines reality
Atheism - political doctrine opposed to theist doctrine in public policy
I am right, and you are wrong - I hope you die peacefullyCool
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29-05-2012, 11:52 AM
RE: faith of the founding fathers
No matter what their faith, they didn't want to be like Europe where theocracy was embedded in the government.
How did that work out?

The old gods are dead, let's invent some new ones before something really bad happens.
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29-05-2012, 05:13 PM
RE: faith of the founding fathers
Need we say more?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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