feminism vs everything
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27-10-2014, 08:23 PM
RE: feminism vs everything
(27-10-2014 08:12 PM)Cetaceaphile Wrote:  
(27-10-2014 08:06 PM)Chas Wrote:  Maybe you should read what I actually wrote. You have simply repeated the mistaken interpretation of your previous post.

You are mistaking 'loud' for 'numerous'. And you are ignoring the conflation of the tiny minority with the mainstream, which is what is being objected to.

So all of these posts in multiple threads accusing people of being sexists because they reject the public version of feminism (even though the self-proclaimed feminists on this forum are also supposed to be opposed to this public face as they don't even consider it to be 'real' feminism) is all a ridiculous word game based on one minor detail which is of absolutely no consequence?

I couldn't parse that. What 'minor detail'?

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27-10-2014, 08:42 PM (This post was last modified: 27-10-2014 08:53 PM by Cetaceaphile.)
RE: feminism vs everything
(27-10-2014 08:23 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(27-10-2014 08:12 PM)Cetaceaphile Wrote:  So all of these posts in multiple threads accusing people of being sexists because they reject the public version of feminism (even though the self-proclaimed feminists on this forum are also supposed to be opposed to this public face as they don't even consider it to be 'real' feminism) is all a ridiculous word game based on one minor detail which is of absolutely no consequence?

I couldn't parse that. What 'minor detail'?

Well, the basic idea seems to be that the feminism of academia, social media and hipsters is 'not real feminism', and that 'real feminism' is actually a Equalitarian position supporting gender equality. Ok, fair enough. Lets ignore the naming issues and keep that how it is.

"Feminism is about supporting gender equality."

Next idea is that the public feminism, the 'not real feminism', is sexist, destructive and ridiculous. Lets just allow the NTS on that; so keeping it as that;

"Feminism is about supporting gender equality. Many sexists use the label incorrectly to attack men, or just about anyone they don't like. We are opposed to these sexists who use our name incorrectly."

Next thing; the 'incorrect' use of the label by a loud and actually very large splinter group means that many people are anti-feminist.
Now this seems to be where things fall apart for many people. Instead of seeing this as being anti-'non real feminism', it is still seen as anti 'equalitarian feminism' for some reason.
That is how threads like Anti-Feminism is Poisoning Atheism came from. Many, many people are obviously opposed to these destructive sexists who have wormed their way into everything and ruined it, including the equalitarian feminists who don't consider the sexist feminists to be 'true feminists' at all. However it must be glaringly obvious that when people are anti-feminist they are not talking about being anti-equality, they are talking about being anti-sexist. We see though, on every video and every blog post on the issue a bunch of equalitarians sounding off along the lines of "Wow, way to lump these morons in with real feminists, you sexist pig." which of course blends in entirely with the posts from the sexists saying "Wow, you must really hate women, you sexist pig!"

It seems to me that if you are equalitarians you should be spending a hell of a lot more time fighting sexists rather than accusing people of being sexists because they oppose real sexists who use the same label as you.
If someone says "I really hate feminists. The sexism makes me feel like I live in an uncivilised society", the response from equalitarian feminists shouldn't be "Omg you sexist, stop lumping all feminists together!", it should be something much more productive.

Ignoring all of the side issues and language issues on this. Lets use your own language actually:
If feminists really want to fight for equality shouldn't they be teaming up with other egalitarians to fight sexism instead of attacking them over words?

Many people don't want to use the name of one gender as a name for equality between both, and many people do because of historical context. Agree to disagree and just go by the relevant concepts instead. People who stand for gender equality want to fight against sexists. That is the big idea here; not ridiculous No True Scotsman insanity and accusations of sexism.

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27-10-2014, 09:59 PM (This post was last modified: 28-10-2014 06:06 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: feminism vs everything
(26-10-2014 05:29 PM)CleverUsername Wrote:  
(26-10-2014 05:14 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  What is it exactly about the logic of feminism that you question, even if it's just a small part of your brain?



Not feminism in general, just the term. It seems illogical to name something that should be for two sides after one side. I used the analogy in another thread that it's like calling fans of any sport "Baseball fans".

History and etymology; as women have been, continue to be, and most likely will be the most adversely affected by sexual inequality. We can't change the word's history, but we can define it for us now; and it's current definition is clear, 'sexual equality'.

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28-10-2014, 08:24 AM
RE: feminism vs everything
(27-10-2014 08:42 PM)Cetaceaphile Wrote:  
(27-10-2014 08:23 PM)Chas Wrote:  I couldn't parse that. What 'minor detail'?

Well, the basic idea seems to be that the feminism of academia, social media and hipsters is 'not real feminism', and that 'real feminism' is actually a Equalitarian position supporting gender equality. Ok, fair enough. Lets ignore the naming issues and keep that how it is.

"Feminism is about supporting gender equality."

Next idea is that the public feminism, the 'not real feminism', is sexist, destructive and ridiculous. Lets just allow the NTS on that; so keeping it as that;

"Feminism is about supporting gender equality. Many sexists use the label incorrectly to attack men, or just about anyone they don't like. We are opposed to these sexists who use our name incorrectly."

Next thing; the 'incorrect' use of the label by a loud and actually very large splinter group means that many people are anti-feminist.
Now this seems to be where things fall apart for many people. Instead of seeing this as being anti-'non real feminism', it is still seen as anti 'equalitarian feminism' for some reason.
That is how threads like Anti-Feminism is Poisoning Atheism came from. Many, many people are obviously opposed to these destructive sexists who have wormed their way into everything and ruined it, including the equalitarian feminists who don't consider the sexist feminists to be 'true feminists' at all. However it must be glaringly obvious that when people are anti-feminist they are not talking about being anti-equality, they are talking about being anti-sexist. We see though, on every video and every blog post on the issue a bunch of equalitarians sounding off along the lines of "Wow, way to lump these morons in with real feminists, you sexist pig." which of course blends in entirely with the posts from the sexists saying "Wow, you must really hate women, you sexist pig!"

It seems to me that if you are equalitarians you should be spending a hell of a lot more time fighting sexists rather than accusing people of being sexists because they oppose real sexists who use the same label as you.
If someone says "I really hate feminists. The sexism makes me feel like I live in an uncivilised society", the response from equalitarian feminists shouldn't be "Omg you sexist, stop lumping all feminists together!", it should be something much more productive.

Ignoring all of the side issues and language issues on this. Lets use your own language actually:
If feminists really want to fight for equality shouldn't they be teaming up with other egalitarians to fight sexism instead of attacking them over words?

Many people don't want to use the name of one gender as a name for equality between both, and many people do because of historical context. Agree to disagree and just go by the relevant concepts instead. People who stand for gender equality want to fight against sexists. That is the big idea here; not ridiculous No True Scotsman insanity and accusations of sexism.

You still miss the point. By saying 'feminism is bad ...' without qualifying it they are conflating. That is the problem.

Probably everyone here is against the misandrist radical feminists, but if that is what is meant then fucking say that, not just 'feminism'.

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28-10-2014, 08:40 AM
RE: feminism vs everything
(27-10-2014 08:42 PM)Cetaceaphile Wrote:  Well, the basic idea seems to be that the feminism of academia, social media and hipsters is 'not real feminism', and that 'real feminism' is actually a Equalitarian position supporting gender equality.

I think you are talking about people who openly identify themselves as feminists and frequently talk about the issue. The majority of feminists may never even use the word "feminism".

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28-10-2014, 08:40 AM
RE: feminism vs everything
(28-10-2014 08:24 AM)Chas Wrote:  Probably everyone here is against the misandrist radical feminists, but if that is what is meant then fucking say that, not just 'feminism'.

Misandrist radical feminists ride unicorns into battle Dodgy They're that rare. Somehow the anti-fem crowd seem to have made the entire debate surrounding feminism about these mythical beasts and not about e.g. pay equality etc.

"You don't want pay equality, you secretly want to cut our balls off" style of thing... Rolleyes

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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28-10-2014, 08:52 AM
RE: feminism vs everything
(28-10-2014 08:40 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(28-10-2014 08:24 AM)Chas Wrote:  Probably everyone here is against the misandrist radical feminists, but if that is what is meant then fucking say that, not just 'feminism'.

Misandrist radical feminists ride unicorns into battle Dodgy They're that rare. Somehow the anti-fem crowd seem to have made the entire debate surrounding feminism about these mythical beasts and not about e.g. pay equality etc.

"You don't want pay equality, you secretly want to cut our balls off" style of thing... Rolleyes

I fear they're not quite that rare. No

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28-10-2014, 10:22 AM
RE: feminism vs everything
(25-10-2014 07:28 PM)kunoxian drive Wrote:  the problem I have hear is that a good but of feminism is is a schizophrenic narrative
(25-10-2014 09:01 PM)kunoxian drive Wrote:  2. why is their narrative so schizophrenic......

Dissociative Identity Disorder (aka, Multiple Personality Disorder) is not Schizophrenia.

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28-10-2014, 10:37 AM (This post was last modified: 28-10-2014 10:40 AM by WitchSabrina.)
RE: feminism vs everything
I think people should be careful to not confuse male-hating with feminism because these two things are often confused.
Feminism isnt so easy to put in a tidy box due to individual reactions to things that may influence.
For example, i consider myself feminist but women dressing sexy doesnt discount their rights of eqality, whereas lots of feminists might hold a differing view.

The foundation of feminism is gender equality. Period. Equal opportunity equal pay equal advancement.
But other factors color opinions.

When I want your opinion I'll read your entrails.
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28-10-2014, 10:40 AM (This post was last modified: 28-10-2014 10:45 AM by Cetaceaphile.)
RE: feminism vs everything
If people are under the impression that the public face of feminism is an extremely rare minority then it explains a little bit, but it doesn't really explain why anti-feminists are being branded as sexist. Unless of course a complete denial of the public face of feminism is considered to be a totally proper position? Societal labels are what they are. Sure you can pretend that the public face of feminism doesn't exist all you like, but when you apply that practically and end up calling gender equalitarians 'sexists' for being against that public face it ends up looking like two sides of the same coin.
"Oh, they're not real feminists." doesn't really work. It's a futile effort to claim a name back which already has a widely accepted meaning.

If someone is talking about how they hate feminists because they turn online communities and universities in hell holes of sexism and denial of freedom of expression they're obviously not talking about you if you are an equalitarian and not a sexist who wants to delete opposing viewpoints. Saying "Look up what feminism actually means, retard!" doesn't help at all.
"Ok, so you say that feminism is actually just egalitarianism with a concentration on gender issues, but all of the feminists on the TV, on the internet, in the newspapers and walking around in the streets are acting a totally different way, and they take up most of the google searches too. And they say you are actually the fake feminists" Telling people to 'get educated you sexist pig' produces absolutely no good results, and claiming that the other side of feminism is 'not true feminism' doesn't help at all either.

That other side of feminism calls you 'not real feminists' too. In fact many forms of the group call each other 'not real feminists'. The true egalitarians, which you claim to be, apparently claim that the other groups don't exist except for a tiny handful of people, but tens of thousands of those people say you have been brainwashed by the patriarchy. Then of course you have the feminists who claim that any feminist group which also concentrates on male issues is 'not real feminism', and then the other groups who say "men's issues and women's issues are tied together and anyone who ignores men's issues is not a real feminist". You then also get the groups who claim that men's issues don't exist at all and no real feminist would think they do.
Of course though the sexist group seems to have a monopoly when it comes to news, social media and university campuses. Pretending they are not feminists, or that they only exist in the dozens, is bordering on delusional, and also an unproductive position insisting on ignoring the issue.

I would assume that the feminists on an atheist rationalist forum are the egalitarian type, and that 'feminist' is used as the label only because of historical reasons. Fine, go with that, but going into a shit flinger because all of these other groups share the same label and people don't like them is completely stupid.

Maybe it's just time for a division? Personally I've always preferred to go by the technical term of gender equality, but if you've picked a label and that label becomes shit it makes more sense to just abandon it rather than alienating everyone by attempting to clean it off. In fact it just contributes to the shit the more it's clung to. If someone sees the feminists who have the monopoly on social media, news and university campuses, and then try to get more information and they get told by egalitarian feminists "Educate yourself about real feminism, dipshit" they just see more of the same shit; and there is absolutely nothing there to show a separation of the two types. Suddenly gender equality gets a bad connotation, then people start saying of egalitarians 'those people are the same as feminists', and before you know it everything has been pushed back to 1890 because people who actually stand for gender equality held onto an outdated term while it turned into shit instead of just dropping it and taking a new label for the 21st century.

Personally I'm all for just using 'humanist' as that covers all humanity, and if you have a particular interest in gender issues, or are a gender equality activist, then add that on the end if you want, or if you are particularly interested in income equality between classes, or race issues, whatever.

Maybe you disagree with all this, and that is fine. Unfortunately this is another issue I have to be a boring bastard and just say: I've said all I have to say, if we disagree then we disagree.







Although I wonder if there would be a better word to describe a Humanist who has an emphasis on the fair treatment of non-humans...

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