femism vs geek culture and why I think feminist spining wheels
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15-08-2014, 08:27 AM
Re: RE: femism vs geek culture and why I think feminist spining wheels
(15-08-2014 08:22 AM)Zippo Wrote:  
(15-08-2014 08:06 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  I've used that very same wikipedia link myself on these threads.

So why can't games be designed to appeal to women as well? Female playable characters would be appreciated for a start.

If women are 47% of the market the product seems to appeal to them.

Even though when you glance beyond simplistic idealistic views, you can see why statistics can vs limited.

What are the products, games, and ranges of games played? Are stereotypical held ideas withstanding or are they misinformed? There's value in, in depth examination of all forms.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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15-08-2014, 08:38 AM
RE: femism vs geek culture and why I think feminist spining wheels
(15-08-2014 08:25 AM)Res Publica Wrote:  Why can't women look sexy or dress scantily? If you want equality then why not have male characters who look sexy too? Why demand that everything sexual disappear?

This is like that conversation about the Spinal Tap album cover.

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15-08-2014, 10:38 AM
RE: femism vs geek culture and why I think feminist spining wheels
I just wanted to make a point that I don't feel has been stressed enough.

Feminism isn't about blaming every man for every problem. To often when people hear a feminist argument they feel like they are being personally attacked; like they are being accused of being a sexist chauvinistic asshole or a rapist. Nobody is accusing anybody, we are talking about larger ideas that have subtle impacts on all of us. Women are just as influenced by sexists media as men are, and you will find that women are often some of the staunches opponents to feminism, in addition to some of the most adamant supporters of regressive attitudes. You can't talk about culture in the context of "men are the only one's at fault", because men and women share culture.

Another point worth making, the way women are portrayed in media in a very real sense defines our understanding of what it means to be a woman. This comes back to some psychology theory on the difference between sex and gender. To hastily sum it up, sex is the genetic code that says "male" or "female", gender is the role you adopt in society based upon your sex (which is why "gender" applies both to people who have, as an example, a female sex and those who have adopted the female gender). When you are talking about "gender", cultural attitudes and influences are all the matter. A woman is what society says she is, in a very real way. If society says that women are only sex objects then woman become only sex objects, at least in the eyes of both men and woman. One video game with scantily clad ladies doesn't define a gender, but in aggregate a disproportionate representation of women as sex objects does and necessarily shapes our understanding of the female gender. It is important to criticize sexist media, not only for the purpose of trying to influence change, but also to make sure the opposite message is heard; the portrayal of women in that negative light cannot be the only message people receive. As a feminist it is really easy to combat that, you just write a blog, talk to your friends, up load a video to youtube like feminist frequency, or whatever. The point is, keep talking about it, keep being critical, keep trying to balance the message. It is a worth while and necessary effort.
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15-08-2014, 11:16 AM
RE: femism vs geek culture and why I think feminist spining wheels
What's all this about femism ? I used to know a femmy feminist. But he never mentioned femism.

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15-08-2014, 07:01 PM
RE: femism vs geek culture and why I think feminist spining wheels
(15-08-2014 07:22 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  
(15-08-2014 07:05 AM)Monster_Riffs Wrote:  I actually agree that there is an imbalance in games. I don't like this new breed of feminism because it's hysterical and sensationalist.... The problem isn't with the points being made but with who are making them and how they're made.

(15-08-2014 07:05 AM)Monster_Riffs Wrote:  Representation in games is an issue but Sackesian, Watson and Feminist frequency are not the way forward, they are the BNP of feminism. A more rational voice or two need to cut through the shit.

I am not familiar with Sacksian or Watson, but those two videos from Feminist Frequency seemed quite rational to me and I didn't notice any hint of hysteria or sensationalism. I noticed that she deliberately resisted from using pejorative language or appealing to emotion and quite a few times she made the point that you can point out what's wrong with something yet still recognise its other positive attributes.

I think where the video may have been lacking was in how it did not explicitly describe the long term effects of conditioning. But then people who critique society using terms from the field of sociology aren't often particularly well versed in psychology or neuroscience.

When we learn or experience something new we relate it back to what we already know via association. The objection to the portrayal of women in video games stems from recognition that it's building up an overall perception in the minds of viewers or players that is harmful to the treatment of women in real life.

The same argument is used again and again for pornography, for television, for films, for other races, sexualities, lifestyles and minorities and it is precisely because people now recognise this that we live in a fairer and less prejudiced society than 60 years ago.

Admittedly, she's the more ok of the 3 but watch a few of her videos and you may see what I mean. She's a bit hyperdermic syringe model. She flat out lies about some games too. Thunderfoot does some response videos to hers and makes a few fair points but he goes a bit OTT in places too.

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15-08-2014, 07:15 PM
RE: femism vs geek culture and why I think feminist spining wheels
sorry.. It's going to be a while before I can ketch up with you guys.. lol.

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15-08-2014, 09:04 PM
RE: femism vs geek culture and why I think feminist spining wheels
(15-08-2014 07:01 PM)Monster_Riffs Wrote:  
(15-08-2014 07:22 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  I am not familiar with Sacksian or Watson, but those two videos from Feminist Frequency seemed quite rational to me and I didn't notice any hint of hysteria or sensationalism. I noticed that she deliberately resisted from using pejorative language or appealing to emotion and quite a few times she made the point that you can point out what's wrong with something yet still recognise its other positive attributes.

I think where the video may have been lacking was in how it did not explicitly describe the long term effects of conditioning. But then people who critique society using terms from the field of sociology aren't often particularly well versed in psychology or neuroscience.

When we learn or experience something new we relate it back to what we already know via association. The objection to the portrayal of women in video games stems from recognition that it's building up an overall perception in the minds of viewers or players that is harmful to the treatment of women in real life.

The same argument is used again and again for pornography, for television, for films, for other races, sexualities, lifestyles and minorities and it is precisely because people now recognise this that we live in a fairer and less prejudiced society than 60 years ago.

Admittedly, she's the more ok of the 3 but watch a few of her videos and you may see what I mean. She's a bit hyperdermic syringe model. She flat out lies about some games too. Thunderfoot does some response videos to hers and makes a few fair points but he goes a bit OTT in places too.

I have watched probably a half dozen of those videos. I think she is sometimes guilty of portraying aspects of games in a one sided way. I can't fault her for that though; it is not really her obligation to make the opposing sides arguments for them. She has a message and she sticks too it.
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16-08-2014, 12:39 PM
RE: femism vs geek culture and why I think feminist spining wheels
(15-08-2014 09:04 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  
(15-08-2014 07:01 PM)Monster_Riffs Wrote:  Admittedly, she's the more ok of the 3 but watch a few of her videos and you may see what I mean. She's a bit hyperdermic syringe model. She flat out lies about some games too. Thunderfoot does some response videos to hers and makes a few fair points but he goes a bit OTT in places too.

I have watched probably a half dozen of those videos. I think she is sometimes guilty of portraying aspects of games in a one sided way. I can't fault her for that though; it is not really her obligation to make the opposing sides arguments for them. She has a message and she sticks too it.

On the whole, I agree, but I think some of her stuff is deliberately misleading not just one sided, which is why I lump her in with the man hater brigade. I think there is a void to be filled in the feminist movement to be filled by some fairer, less agenda pushing people. I agree with a lot of what they're trying to say but I think the hyperdermic syringe model argument is redundant and the man bashing is laughable.

I'll just play the 'can I help you' lick!!!
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16-08-2014, 12:51 PM
RE: femism vs geek culture and why I think feminist spining wheels
(16-08-2014 12:39 PM)Monster_Riffs Wrote:  
(15-08-2014 09:04 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  I have watched probably a half dozen of those videos. I think she is sometimes guilty of portraying aspects of games in a one sided way. I can't fault her for that though; it is not really her obligation to make the opposing sides arguments for them. She has a message and she sticks too it.

On the whole, I agree, but I think some of her stuff is deliberately misleading not just one sided, which is why I lump her in with the man hater brigade. I think there is a void to be filled in the feminist movement to be filled by some fairer, less agenda pushing people. I agree with a lot of what they're trying to say but I think the hyperdermic syringe model argument is redundant and the man bashing is laughable.

I'm sorry, but man bashing? Care to source that?
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16-08-2014, 12:53 PM
RE: femism vs geek culture and why I think feminist spining wheels
(16-08-2014 12:51 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  
(16-08-2014 12:39 PM)Monster_Riffs Wrote:  On the whole, I agree, but I think some of her stuff is deliberately misleading not just one sided, which is why I lump her in with the man hater brigade. I think there is a void to be filled in the feminist movement to be filled by some fairer, less agenda pushing people. I agree with a lot of what they're trying to say but I think the hyperdermic syringe model argument is redundant and the man bashing is laughable.

I'm sorry, but man bashing? Care to source that?

I'd be curious as to how he knows she's being deliberately misleading, as well...

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