femism vs geek culture and why I think feminist spining wheels
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15-08-2014, 04:10 AM (This post was last modified: 15-08-2014 04:14 AM by ClydeLee.)
Re: RE: femism vs geek culture and why I think feminist spining wheels
(15-08-2014 03:26 AM)One Above All Wrote:  
(15-08-2014 03:00 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  What you are missing is conditioning. It's not just video games but television, films, any constant portrayal in the media.
<snip>

You know, I've been playing games since before I was 6. And I'm not talking about games like "Super Mario" or whatever it was called (though I have played and still play child-friendly games such as Pokémon, Digimon, and Harvest Moon, and enjoy[ed] them thoroughly). I mean Metal Gear Solid (1, 2, and 4) and Metal Gear Rising, Dragon Ball, Hitman, Watch Dogs (I'm playing it now, actually), Battlefield, CoD, Metro 2034 and Metro: Last Light, Far Cry (though I didn't like it, so I never even started the second mission or whatever, IIRC), S.T.A.L.K.E.R., Mortal Kombat, Deus Ex: Human Revolution, Black and White 2, Duke Nukem, and so on. Yet I'm a fairly non-violent person. Even in those games, I only engage (or outright kill) those who are a threat to me (or if it's part of the mission).
For example, in Deus Ex, in the rare instances where I was discovered, I hid first before attempting to kill everyone (which would have been far easier). I never once killed anyone unless I ran out of tranquilizers, or something else that's kinda spoiler-y, so I won't mention it. In MGS4, I made several runs without killing anyone, including bosses (aside from the final boss, whose defeat ends with his death, regardless of how you fight him). In Metal Gear Rising, once I unlocked a non-lethal weapon, I stuck to using that one weapon against every living being (aside from bosses) I had to engage. I recall reloading the game several times just to be able to save civilians who were about to be killed (there aren't that many, but I saved all of them, regardless), just because I didn't want them to die. In Black and White 2, which is where you play as a god and can choose between good and evil, I always picked good, even when it bit me in the ass because I ran out of resources. I converted people by impressing them, rather than conquering them, which, as with Deus Ex, would have been far easier. I could've simply built a huge army and swept away everything else with fire.
Now for real-life. I've never gotten into a fight with anyone, except that one guy who broke my glasses one time, several years ago. We're even friends now. I've never "poked dead things with a stick", or whatever kids do. I preferred to spend my time watching (and sometimes helping) ants carry food (or whatever) to their anthill. I've never watched a fight that I didn't try to stop. I've met and helped people who were suicidal (not talking about online, by the way; I'm talking about face-to-face meetings with suicidal people). I've never thought of men or women as sex objects (or any kind of objects) or even as being all that different, psychologically speaking, due to my personal experience in speaking to and dating both genders (though I've only dated one guy so far). I've been rejected by a girl whom I liked and went on a date with. She was, and still is, my best female friend. I've been rejected by guys whom I liked. We're still friends.

So no, video games are not to blame. I know the difference between fantasy and reality. So does every other healthy person. I can hardly have dreams that aren't lucid dreams, simply because I know when I'm dreaming. That's how good my grip on reality is. If you want to blame anything, blame stupidity and/or mental illness. Video games are not to blame.

That's a nice picture of yourself, but none of the points overall connect coherently in this post. It's as if you think some argument that doesn't mainly exist needs defending against.

You rant about how you could play nice in games, and say you generally do... And you're a nice person. That's fine and dandy. If people were arguing how you act in a video game reflects how you'll act in life, that would probably be a point. That'd actually likely be a point in favor of that position but it's rather pointless both ways.

And your one example of your self isn't a valid "so no" point. To whatever you think the argument is, it doesn't have much merit. I really don't even get what you think is being rationally argued by people. You seem against the idea that has lost even media and political credibility since the 90s, that in video game actions reflect real,life actions. That's not a point brought up these days except maybe by very conservative religious communities.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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15-08-2014, 04:14 AM
RE: femism vs geek culture and why I think feminist spining wheels
(15-08-2014 03:58 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  Your post in no way countered what I was saying about pavlovian conditioning, hebbian learning and how the conscious brain can be influenced by subconscious neural processes.

Instead you just post about your personal experience of being able to differentiate between fantasy and reality, which was never in question, and then come to the conclusion that video games are not to blame for absolutely everyone else.

Everyone else who is healthy. That's the point. If people are mentally ill, it can affect their notion of reality.

(15-08-2014 03:58 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  Maybe you should try addressing my points rather than just provide a strawman argument?

No strawman. You just didn't state it outright, but it is implied by your argument. If people think (or have their brains wired to believe) that pleasure derived from video games will give them pleasure when performing the same actions in real life, then they can't tell the difference between one and the other. Those of us who are healthy don't go on killing, raping, hacking, and stealing sprees, regardless of the games we play. We don't even have the urge to. Yet we play games where some of those things are allowed, if not outright encouraged (I say "some" because I've never played or even heard about a game where rape is allowed or encouraged).
Does playing (and winning) doctor games make one want to become a doctor? No. Does playing (and winning) race car games make one want to become a race car driver? No. Does playing (and winning) skating games make one want to become a skater? No. So why would playing violent games make one violent?

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15-08-2014, 04:16 AM
Re: RE: femism vs geek culture and why I think feminist spining wheels
(15-08-2014 04:14 AM)One Above All Wrote:  
(15-08-2014 03:58 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  Your post in no way countered what I was saying about pavlovian conditioning, hebbian learning and how the conscious brain can be influenced by subconscious neural processes.

Instead you just post about your personal experience of being able to differentiate between fantasy and reality, which was never in question, and then come to the conclusion that video games are not to blame for absolutely everyone else.

Everyone else who is healthy. That's the point. If people are mentally ill, it can affect their notion of reality.

(15-08-2014 03:58 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  Maybe you should try addressing my points rather than just provide a strawman argument?

No strawman. You just didn't state it outright, but it is implied by your argument. If people think (or have their brains wired to believe) that pleasure derived from video games will give them pleasure when performing the same actions in real life, then they can't tell the difference between one and the other. Those of us who are healthy don't go on killing, raping, hacking, and stealing sprees, regardless of the games we play. We don't even have the urge to. Yet we play games where some of those things are allowed, if not outright encouraged (I say "some" because I've never played or even heard about a game where rape is allowed or encouraged).
Does playing (and winning) doctor games make one want to become a doctor? No. Does playing (and winning) race car games make one want to become a race car driver? No. Does playing (and winning) skating games make one want to become a skater? No. So why would playing violent games make one violent?

That's not an argument being made!

Seriously, why are you jumping to that? Nothing Mathilda is saying implies it. If you think so, it seems you're inferring it based on something from you're perspective about this concept.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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15-08-2014, 04:17 AM
RE: femism vs geek culture and why I think feminist spining wheels
(15-08-2014 04:10 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  You seem against the idea that has lost even media and political credibility since the 90s, that in video game actions reflect real,life actions. That's not a point brought up these days except maybe by very conservative religious communities.

I thought that was the point being brought up here. Pavlovian conditioning and all that. "If it feels good here, it must feel good elsewhere" (highly paraphrased) is the idea that Mathilda seems to be suggesting as being what games put in gamers' heads.

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15-08-2014, 04:22 AM
Re: RE: femism vs geek culture and why I think feminist spining wheels
(15-08-2014 04:17 AM)One Above All Wrote:  
(15-08-2014 04:10 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  You seem against the idea that has lost even media and political credibility since the 90s, that in video game actions reflect real,life actions. That's not a point brought up these days except maybe by very conservative religious communities.

I thought that was the point being brought up here. Pavlovian conditioning and all that. "If it feels good here, it must feel good elsewhere" (highly paraphrased) is the idea that Mathilda seems to be suggesting as being what games put in gamers' heads.

The arguments that people are internally/unconsciously effected by the media consume, does not equate to, gratification from an output of a media form means they'll get gratification of that nature by replicating the output outside of media.

I may have horribly mangled that description trying to add odd terms to it, but I hope it makes sense.

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15-08-2014, 04:29 AM
RE: femism vs geek culture and why I think feminist spining wheels
(15-08-2014 04:22 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  The arguments that people are internally/unconsciously effected by the media consume, does not equate to, gratification from an output of a media form means they'll get gratification of that nature by replicating the output outside of media.

I may have horribly mangled that description trying to add odd terms to it, but I hope it makes sense.

*faceplanet*
It does make sense and is an idiotic statement. Not because it's wrong, but because it's almost as obvious as saying that 1+1=2.
Of course people are influenced by things they see, hear, smell, touch, (...). It's part of a condition known as "not being brain-dead". Who the fuck says otherwise? The argument is that video games don't affect healthy (putting a lot of emphasis on this since it seems to be constantly omitted by both you and Mathilda, to name a few) people negatively enough for them to become violent sociopaths. I used myself as an example, but I have plenty of gamer friends and acquaintances to choose from. Pretty sure there are more than 100 of them (though not many more) at this point.

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15-08-2014, 04:41 AM
RE: femism vs geek culture and why I think feminist spining wheels
(15-08-2014 04:17 AM)One Above All Wrote:  I thought that was the point being brought up here. Pavlovian conditioning and all that. "If it feels good here, it must feel good elsewhere" (highly paraphrased) is the idea that Mathilda seems to be suggesting as being what games put in gamers' heads.

Go and watch the second video posted by Michael Tadlock about objectification of women, being disempowered, dehumanised etc

The effect is far more pernicious and doesn't just apply to the perception of women based on their portrayal in video games, but any stereotype you see portrayed on TV, in films, in news reports etc.

Let's use a hypothetical example. Imagine it's not women but Mexicans being portrayed like that in the majority of video games. You can beat them up, use and exploit them, exchange them for goods and services. The Non-playable Mexican characters would also be useless and unable to look after themselves and thus deserving of less respect as a human being.

This by itself does not mean to say that you would do any of these actions immediately after playing such a video game solely because of your playing experience. But it does mean that your perception of Mexicans that you meet in real life will be altered and consequently also the way that you deal with them.

This mass portrayal of Mexicans in video games would change how they fit into society. Mexicans would be valued less than other races. They would be more likely to be exploited and physically bullied, less likely to be given opportunities to contribute and less likely to be listened to or taken seriously. The stereotype would also be reinforced in other forms of media such as tabloid papers, TV and films.

What's more the effect would be self-sustaining. The Mexicans would have less self confidence, especially when competing against other races and this would effect their ability to contribute making them more likely to believe the stereotypes themselves.
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15-08-2014, 04:53 AM
RE: femism vs geek culture and why I think feminist spining wheels
(15-08-2014 04:41 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  Go and watch the second video posted by Michael Tadlock about objectification of women, being disempowered, dehumanised etc

I actually had already watched that video, believe it or not, though I can't recall if it was because it was posted in this thread, or some other website I happened to be reading.

(15-08-2014 04:41 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  The effect is far more pernicious and doesn't just apply to the perception of women based on their portrayal in video games, but any stereotype you see portrayed on TV, in films, in news reports etc.
<snip>

Yet I've never felt this, nor have any of my gamer friends. My guess? It's cultural. In my country, only the dumbest of the dumb (usually old people, from my experience, hinting at the cultural aspect of this issue) discriminate against minorities like non-heterosexuals, women, non-whites, disabled people, and so on. The rest of us do not. The USA, on the other hand, has a slight (read: major) problem with catching up with the rest of the modern world when it comes to discrimination and rationality. I call it the only "third-world first-world country" because of this.

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15-08-2014, 05:03 AM
RE: femism vs geek culture and why I think feminist spining wheels
(15-08-2014 04:53 AM)One Above All Wrote:  Yet I've never felt this, nor have any of my gamer friends. My guess? It's cultural. In my country, only the dumbest of the dumb (usually old people, from my experience, hinting at the cultural aspect of this issue) discriminate against minorities like non-heterosexuals, women, non-whites, disabled people, and so on. The rest of us do not.

Can I just ask a question for context here. Are you a white male?

Also, women aren't a minority.
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15-08-2014, 05:06 AM (This post was last modified: 15-08-2014 07:04 AM by One Above All.)
RE: femism vs geek culture and why I think feminist spining wheels
(15-08-2014 05:03 AM)Elder Cunningham Wrote:  Can I just ask a question for context here. Are you a white male?

White, male, bisexual, gnostic atheist.

(15-08-2014 05:03 AM)Elder Cunningham Wrote:  Also, women aren't a minority.

I should not have been lazy and, instead, have written "people who are discriminated against elsewhere". Sorry.

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