game character based on Sarkeesian.... we're DOOMED
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18-02-2015, 03:00 PM (This post was last modified: 18-02-2015 03:07 PM by ClydeLee.)
RE: game character based on Sarkeesian.... we're DOOMED
(18-02-2015 02:45 PM)Blackhand293 Wrote:  
(18-02-2015 02:04 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Simply you defending yourself with ideas like thinking others are of this, Oh she can't do wrong debacle is a point nobody has made. In attempt to defend yourself of a strawman argument, you've made one.

YOU put these distinctions up of Gamer community or the term gamer with an element of thinking they matter. WHY? What causes you to think it deeply matters and defend this idea to some high degree?

Do you have measure for demands that everyone evaluating concepts needs to get to before they can critique something? You can knock the points but the idea of them doing it shouldn't be criticized and feared. Every critic including her and coutnless other people who have analysed games in various manners have made mistakes or been mistaken about ideas.

It's what needs to exist, especially in video games if you ever want them considered a medium the same way music/movies are. Is there a standard for how much of a movie fan a person needs to be before they start noticing and acknowledging patterns and trends in movies? I don't believe so. You bicker about some time she said some label she doesn't agree with, which doesn't mean much of anything. She also stated and put in the time to play games and research them to gather info to create and edit videos about.

Yes I see the difference, and see the lack of objective sensibility with how the claims were formulated in that anthology. Your analogy is not fitting at all to the situation. A better attempted at it would be saying someone who read books 2 and 5 of Harry Potter was then making claims about the entire book series.

Your points don't come off as someone who has or wants to view this away from their perspective oh misdoings existing, and that's pretty much not going to change it seems.

So did you at any point actually look at the evidence provided of the claims I made?

No. It appears you did not. I am done with this one sided argument. Intellectual dishonesty does not become you.


Yes I have looked at it.. Well done at showing you have a personality that is worthy of thinking is open minded and willing to discuss anything with. Do you think your making something or stating something new don't you? I want YOU to tell me why you feel something and you've done next to none of it despite honest questions directed at you.

I've watched the videos you've put up. This isn't a new topic nor is it new on this forum, it was very commonly discussed way to much I'd say half a year ago. I've seen those videos and links before and seen the points that are valid and the points that are wrong from some. Like Thunderfoots claims, it's right she over generalizes some bad points like the way some sandbox games let you kill women/men equally, so it kinda isn't supportive of her point. Those videos are also just to critique as well. To claim her argument is one-sided and you can apply the arguments to say Men are overlysexualied is a misunderstanding of the idea being done. YES it is true... analyzes aren't an attempt to study everything from every angle. It's the same as a literary paper or a literary style film critic being applied to video games. You can do it properly from a single feminist, Marxists, or new historicist viewpoint. You aren't claiming to be the objective arbiter of every issue thinkable, and that's never a point claimed in her videos. But a false one people project to thinking is being stated.

Do you wish to call others for fallacies while ignoring the fallacies you make and think you're of a superior position? Resorting to not answering questions saying, is immature and poor communication if you think you had a shred of respect for engaging in people openly. If you actually thought you had a point that matters, and understood communication. Step one should be opening lines of dialogue and learning the difference between a question and an assertion. Don't get backed into a defensive corner; there is no attack being done in studying and questioning the world.

You think a youtube video is evidence? Of what? Here is one about how there are some issues and actual ideas on ways to solve gender stereotyping by marketing. What you actually put into the market does adversely affect the generated sales and results. Marketing isn't just a idea of following trends, its about knowing what ways you can manipulate and attempt to alter them to get ahead vs droves of competition.



"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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18-02-2015, 03:08 PM
RE: game character based on Sarkeesian.... we're DOOMED
(18-02-2015 02:04 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  See the difference?

Simply you defending yourself with ideas like thinking others are of this, Oh she can't do wrong debacle is a point nobody has made. In attempt to defend yourself of a strawman argument, you've made one.

YOU put these distinctions up of Gamer community or the term gamer with an element of thinking they matter. WHY? What causes you to think it deeply matters and defend this idea to some high degree?

Do you have measure for demands that everyone evaluating concepts needs to get to before they can critique something? You can knock the points but the idea of them doing it shouldn't be criticized and feared. Every critic including her and coutnless other people who have analysed games in various manners have made mistakes or been mistaken about ideas.

It's what needs to exist, especially in video games if you ever want them considered a medium the same way music/movies are. Is there a standard for how much of a movie fan a person needs to be before they start noticing and acknowledging patterns and trends in movies? I don't believe so. You bicker about some time she said some label she doesn't agree with, which doesn't mean much of anything. She also stated and put in the time to play games and research them to gather info to create and edit videos about.

Yes I see the difference, and see the lack of objective sensibility with how the claims were formulated in that anthology. Your analogy is not fitting at all to the situation. A better attempted at it would be saying someone who read books 2 and 5 of Harry Potter was then making claims about the entire book series.

Your points don't come off as someone who has or wants to view this away from their perspective oh misdoings existing, and that's pretty much not going to change it seems.
[/quote]

The point is it has repeatedly been demonstrated that the footage she used, came from other peoples work. She downloaded the footage, edited it and uploaded the videos. Removed all context to the scenes and proceed to strawman.

She had a kickstarter campaign to raise funds to make those videos, she received $160,000 to make them, 12 were promised over two years ago. She has made 6.

On the campaign page she claims to have been a life long gamer, with a deep interest in games. The the footage of her claiming to her class that she does not infact play games, does not understand them and does not like them came out.

In Fact just this week she demonstrated again she does not actually play the games she bashes. Dark Light, a FPS game, she claims that the woman is damsel as per her "tropes". Within the opening cinematic, the first five minutes of this game, the male lead is saved by the female lead. A female lead that is a strong woman and for fully half the game is the male leads Boss.

So please do tell me why I should take her seriously.

The requirement of evidence to back your claim does not disappear because it hurts your feelings, reality does not care about your feefees.
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18-02-2015, 03:19 PM
RE: game character based on Sarkeesian.... we're DOOMED
(18-02-2015 03:00 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(18-02-2015 02:45 PM)Blackhand293 Wrote:  So did you at any point actually look at the evidence provided of the claims I made?

No. It appears you did not. I am done with this one sided argument. Intellectual dishonesty does not become you.


Yes I have looked at it.. Well done at showing you have a personality that is worthy of thinking is open minded and willing to discuss anything with. Do you think your making something or stating something new don't you? I want YOU to tell me why you feel something and you've done next to none of it despite honest questions directed at you.

I've watched the videos you've put up. This isn't a new topic nor is it new on this forum, it was very commonly discussed way to much I'd say half a year ago. I've seen those videos and links before and seen the points that are valid and the points that are wrong from some. Like Thunderfoots claims, it's right she over generalizes some bad points like the way some sandbox games let you kill women/men equally, so it kinda isn't supportive of her point. Those videos are also just to critique as well. To claim her argument is one-sided and you can apply the arguments to say Men are overlysexualied is a misunderstanding of the idea being done. YES it is true... analyzes aren't an attempt to study everything from every angle. It's the same as a literary paper or a literary style film critic being applied to video games. You can do it properly from a single feminist, Marxists, or new historicist viewpoint. You aren't claiming to be the objective arbiter of every issue thinkable, and that's never a point claimed in her videos. But a false one people project to thinking is being stated.

Do you wish to call others for fallacies while ignoring the fallacies you make and think you're of a superior position? Resorting to not answering questions saying, is immature and poor communication if you think you had a shred of respect for engaging in people openly. If you actually thought you had a point that matters, and understood communication. Step one should be opening lines of dialogue and learning the difference between a question and an assertion. Don't get backed into a defensive corner; there is no attack being done in studying and questioning the world.

You think a youtube video is evidence? Of what? Here is one about how there are some issues and actual ideas on ways to solve gender stereotyping by marketing. What you actually put into the market does adversely affect the generated sales and results. Marketing isn't just a idea of following trends, its about knowing what ways you can manipulate and attempt to alter them to get ahead vs droves of competition.



My problem is not with you. I have no problem with questions, with look at the world and attempting to understand it. My problem is when evidence of something is presented and it is ignored in favor of a gender ideology, that fully ignores and/or trivializes half the populations problems.

I posted a video showing how she manipulated gameplay footage, say that it was the point of the game to murder woman, when it is infact not true, when I was accused of strawmanning Anita.

I gave evidence showing she did not infact play the games and took footage from other youtubers and passed it off as her own. Again when I was accused of strawmanning.

So why when its pointed out she is dishonest and should not be taken seriously or honored am I the bad guy?

I have told you why I posted the part about being a gamer. A person who is part of the gaming community specifically targeted by her sweeping generalizations, as a misogynist among other things. So yes I feel attacked when she is blindly defended in the face of evidence that she is dishonest.

The requirement of evidence to back your claim does not disappear because it hurts your feelings, reality does not care about your feefees.
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18-02-2015, 03:23 PM (This post was last modified: 18-02-2015 03:35 PM by ClydeLee.)
RE: game character based on Sarkeesian.... we're DOOMED
Many people creating content on youtube take clips of other people. Not everything they do is easily get to able when they know X is in a game. I think it should be credited to at times if it is content that involves user control, but I'm not thinking it dismisses anything said.

What clips come from out of context elements of video games. When you do a literary analysis or a film review, you don't speak of every moment of the art form. You are taking pieces of it to find the tropes and elements of it. This argument I've never understood coming out by people. What do you HONEST think the point is here? Do you have experience and know what the concept of a analysis of this type is doing and how to do it?

She should be up on the kickstarter promises, but this is again not an argument about the intent or points. But about the "behind scenes" angle of it. I might be upset but I don't see how it should alter judging the content. I don't care to view these as a case a person solely caring about the content would make.

People can have a different lifetime of experiences at different times. WHY you care about the term gamer? WHAT criteria it takes to you to be a "gamer" is still something I'd rather hear than what I know of this already. Why this is an issue, I still don't get. So what? people's mindsets change. Does it mean she is LYING because in 2010 she said she doesn't consider herself a gamer but says something different 3-4 years later on... not necessarily, peoples mindsets and likes CHANGE over time. Maybe it's more a lie than a mindset change, but to assert you are right about it is making a poorly substantiated assumption.

I wouldn't claim you "Should take he seriously" I don't think you should dismiss the IDEAS based on irrational associations and assumptions about 1 person out of hundreds of people highlighting issues and conflicts in sector of the world. I would claim you should stop thinking of things in a "black or white" "with us or against us" manner that COMES OFF in this. I'm not saying it's how you definitively think. It's how you come off in this discussion though.

I would say the concept that you view her as "blindly" defended is showing you are having an issue viewing this form an open minded not irrational view. I wouldn't say she is "blindly" attacked. I think some points are off base and some are wrong. You were Strawmanning other people in this thread and responding as if a question posed to you was an assertion made against you. That's why It's hard to find you honest. You viewing this as you being considered "the bad guy" is more of the mindset problem. That's not my view of it, why is it YOUR view of it?

If by the "point is murdering" women point you're making. If you mean the GTA argument then I'd say that's flawed. I don't remember off my head EVERY argument made, but I recall people accusing that argument falsely. It's different to say it's the point... and saying the game gives you guided incentive to do it. I myself playing GTA3 as a teenager directly recall taking advantage of that and seeing it as a no-lose win-win situation, Taking a prostitute(i recall it often specifically toward the garage save point I'd do it since it was simply a base) and then killing the npc afterwards and grabbing back the money. The gameplay was itself set up that way, it's not misleading to characterize that as so.

But like other arguments close to that in sandbox games like Fable, elder scrolls, etc. There is more equal notions of allowing you to kill women the same as men and it's more gender equal. It's notably interesting because those games specifically, and others OFTEN, prevent almost any children harming or murdering. They are protecting children and lessening the actual gender distinction by showing how they could protect women like they do with children, but that would of been a more genderly biased poor choice of action by deeming women as needing gameplay harm limitaitons.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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