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31-01-2017, 11:57 AM (This post was last modified: 31-01-2017 12:02 PM by sneroul the thinker.)
RE: give me the best you have got.
Very well lets investigate. It would appear that nobody saw the same thing a priest that did investigation stated that he has never seen more contradictionary reports thousants of other claimed they saw nothing at all, I have found only 2 websites that mentioned that last one but they seem to be reliable enough. I do wonder why these supernatural beings chose to reveal themself only in the past 10000 years and why us why not the neanderthals. So i see 3 possible options. A it really was a miracle by a woman that lived 2000 years ago B they had mass hysteria C the journalist were lying. Now it was probably both 2 and 3. There were also 2 prophesy's the first one predicted that world war 1 would end and that a worst one would follow and a warning of russia this was written in 1941 i think. Now the part that convince me is whats after that it states that Russia would become Christian again and there will be a time of peace. that did happen and it was written in 1941. I won't cover the other one since Some people belief its a forgery and its mostly wrong.
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31-01-2017, 12:00 PM
RE: give me the best you have got.
(31-01-2017 11:57 AM)sneroul the thinker Wrote:  Very well lets investigate. It would appear that nobody saw the same thing a priest that did investigation stated that he has never seen more contradictionary reports thousants of other claimed they saw nothing at all, I have found only 2 websites that mentioned that last one but they seem to be reliable enough. I do wonder why these supernatural beings chose to reveal themself only in the past 10000 years and why us why not the neanderthals. So i see 3 possible options. A it really was a miracle by a woman that lived 2000 years ago B they had mass hysteria C the journalist were lying

Even more curious that all of these "miracles" that supposedly occur today (in the age of information where much of the world has a camera in their pocket) can't be verified and still rely on hearsay.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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31-01-2017, 12:04 PM
RE: give me the best you have got.
Indeed I also wondered if such a thing would happen now with the majority of people haveing cellphone cameras. there are photos of the sun and crowd that exist but I could not find anything strange about it there black and white . I don't believe we even have alive witnesses anymore.
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31-01-2017, 12:08 PM
RE: give me the best you have got.
(31-01-2017 12:04 PM)sneroul the thinker Wrote:  Indeed I also wondered if such a thing would happen now with the majority of people haveing cellphone cameras. there are photos of the sun and crowd that exist but I could not find anything strange about it there black and white . I don't believe we even have alive witnesses anymore.

People believe what they want to believe sometimes. So if a "miracle" fits their preconceived conclusions, then it is deemed a miracle and no amount of reasoning will disprove it.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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31-01-2017, 02:48 PM
RE: give me the best you have got.
(31-01-2017 11:57 AM)sneroul the thinker Wrote:  Very well lets investigate. It would appear that nobody saw the same thing a priest that did investigation stated that he has never seen more contradictionary reports thousants of other claimed they saw nothing at all, I have found only 2 websites that mentioned that last one but they seem to be reliable enough. I do wonder why these supernatural beings chose to reveal themself only in the past 10000 years and why us why not the neanderthals. So i see 3 possible options. A it really was a miracle by a woman that lived 2000 years ago B they had mass hysteria C the journalist were lying. Now it was probably both 2 and 3. There were also 2 prophesy's the first one predicted that world war 1 would end and that a worst one would follow and a warning of russia this was written in 1941 i think. Now the part that convince me is whats after that it states that Russia would become Christian again and there will be a time of peace. that did happen and it was written in 1941. I won't cover the other one since Some people belief its a forgery and its mostly wrong.

You apparently didn't read my post from the other thread. This is in regard to the Dancing Sun miracle. I'll post it again here:

Astronomers warn people who are looking at the sun to not do that because it damages the retina but one of the things that happens when looking in the direction of the sun for any length of time is that it appears to dance around. The eye is fighting the glare of the sun. I've had it happen myself.

Add to this the anticipation and excitement of thousands of people gathered to experience a religious event and viola!....it's a miracle..the sun is moving around in the sky.

Interesting that astronomers around the world didn't noticed anything unusual happening to the sun that day (this was in 1917 I believe) and Lisbon, Portugal is 70 miles away from where the sun was supposed to be dancing in the sky and nobody there noticed a damn thing.


So again. SEVENTY MILES AWAY in Lisbon, Portugal no one noticed anything going on with the sun. No one outside of the area where thousands were gathered noticed anything. Many of the reporters didn't notice a thing. Astronomers around the world noticed nothing.

Read the history of mass hysteria. Read about the Orson Welles radio broadcast in 1938 of War of the Worlds. People actually swore they saw aliens that night. The human brain is very susceptible to suggestion, especially when all logic is thrown out the window and they WANT to believe in a god or aliens or whatever is being touted as real.

It's a bunch of hooey.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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31-01-2017, 06:08 PM
RE: give me the best you have got.
Sneroul, you're also looking at it as an A-or-B proposal: Christian God (and associated Yahweh-caused miracles) or no god. So when you see stories of "miraculous" occurrences, what you're really thinking is "does this God of theirs have power after all, as they claim?".

But it's not A-or-B. It's A through Z, and a lot more. Almost every major religion, any one in which there are large enough numbers of people for charlatans to take advantage of credulous masses, and for mass delusions as DF2 has described, to take root and become widespread stories, has such events.

See, for instance, the Hindu tradition of miracles, including the 1995 "milk miracle":

Modern communication made possible the near instantaneous experience of the milk miracle around the globe. Unlike most miracles, it was not associated with a particular saint, but initiated in a dream to a devotee who chose to remain anonymous. In this divine revelation Ganesha, Lord of Obstacles, removed a very large roadblock in many hearts and minds: the doubt that God is real. He did it not only for a billion Hindus, but also for hundreds of millions of others who saw or read about the divine event. Truly Hinduism, having found a new Hindu solidarity, will not be the same again in our eyes, nor in the eyes of the rest of the world.

https://www.hinduismtoday.com/modules/sm...temid=3461

Ready to become a Hindu, now?

It's a serious question. If not, then why not?

Notice how similar the language of the proponent of Hindu miracles-as-proof-of-god-power sounds to that of the same equivalent charlatan in the field of Christianity Pimping.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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31-01-2017, 08:29 PM
RE: give me the best you have got.
In the Eastern Orthodox Church, there are three miracles that happen often enough that everyone knows someone who has experienced one, even if they haven't experienced it directly. I heard one priest describe the miracles as the church's own version of the charismatic experience. (Otherwise, the Orthodox church is very liturgical, traditional, and looks at charismatic experiences with suspicion.) These are the miracles: weeping icons, incorrupt dead bodies, and clairvoyance by holy people. You hear stories about a pilgrim walking up to a monk's cell in the wilderness outside a monastery in Greece, and the monk miraculously knows his name and everything about his life.

I've seen one of the weeping icons while it was still weeping. It was under glass. The fragrance of the oil coming out of it was really nice. The incorrupt bodies... you can read about that in Dostoevsky's The Brothers Karamazov. I've visited one here in the USA. It looked like a mummy, and the only skin and bones part I could see were the hands. The rest of the body was covered in robes, and in a shrine with glass on top. I've been told that normally a body would have deteriorated down to bones in the amount of time that had passed. The Orthodox church venerates relics of saints and preaches that it's because "matter matters." They believe in the resurrection of the body, and see incorrupt bodies are evidence for this belief.

I'm sorry if this description is upsetting to anyone. In my own journey to atheism, I often go back to these miracles and think "but what about that? Can you explain that without God?"
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31-01-2017, 08:37 PM
RE: give me the best you have got.
Why would an impotent god make statues weep, draw Marys on walls, but not cure one innocent baby or feed one starving child ?

The end.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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31-01-2017, 08:55 PM
RE: give me the best you have got.
I have to mention the holy fire at church of the sepulcher in Jerusalem, as well. Thousands of people packed shoulder to shoulder in an old church, who haven't slept for at least 24 hours... seems like a good time for a miracle to happen.
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31-01-2017, 09:14 PM
RE: give me the best you have got.
(31-01-2017 08:29 PM)port_of_call Wrote:  You hear stories

Yes, you do hear stories. All religions tell them. They all have many things in common-- except for which god(s) they are claiming is the source of those miracles.

That seems to be the nature of most "miracle" claims, if you ask closely. An interesting characteristic of human psychology I read about in one of my ex-GF's psych textbooks was a tendency for humans to shift from third person to first person remembrance, when speaking of events, as well. But look more closely at the claims and it's usually pretty easy to see the effect of growing mythology in the storytelling.

(31-01-2017 08:29 PM)port_of_call Wrote:  I've seen one of the weeping icons while it was still weeping. It was under glass. The fragrance of the oil coming out of it was really nice.

That didn't give you pause?

(31-01-2017 08:29 PM)port_of_call Wrote:  The incorrupt bodies... you can read about that in Dostoevsky's The Brothers Karamazov. I've visited one here in the USA. It looked like a mummy, and the only skin and bones part I could see were the hands. The rest of the body was covered in robes, and in a shrine with glass on top. I've been told that normally a body would have deteriorated down to bones in the amount of time that had passed. The Orthodox church venerates relics of saints and preaches that it's because "matter matters." They believe in the resurrection of the body, and see incorrupt bodies are evidence for this belief.

That didn't give you pause?

http://skepdic.com/incorrupt.html

Also, if you read this Patheos article, he talks about how several of those "incorruptible" bodies were deliberately preserved, either called miracles because it was forgotten that they were preserved or because of pious fraud:

In some cases, the answer turns out to be obvious in retrospect. Consider the story of St. Margaret of Cortona, whose body has remained incorrupt and whole for over seven hundred years – seemingly a great miracle. Yet a recent forensic examination, commissioned by the Catholic church and described in the June 2001 edition of Discover, revealed the startling truth:
"As Fulcheri gently lifted the hem of her dress up over her legs, all those assembled began to murmur. Several long incisions streaked along her thighs; other, deeper cuts ran along her abdomen and chest. Clearly made after death, they had been sewn shut with a whipstitch in coarse black thread. Saint Margaret had been artificially mummified."


Others began to decay as soon as they were moved (meaning something in the burial environment preserved them, not a miracle).

He also talks about how it occurs to non-Christians, who tend to make poor Saints.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/daylightath...ptibility/


(31-01-2017 08:29 PM)port_of_call Wrote:  I'm sorry if this description is upsetting to anyone. In my own journey to atheism, I often go back to these miracles and think "but what about that? Can you explain that without God?"

With all due respect, that's because you're not thinking.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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