give me the best you have got.
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
31-01-2017, 10:21 PM (This post was last modified: 31-01-2017 10:45 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: give me the best you have got.
(31-01-2017 08:29 PM)port_of_call Wrote:  I often go back to these miracles and think "but what about that? Can you explain that without God?"

A god explains nothing. It's just a bad habit.
The real question is why do you need an explanation for everything, today ?
http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1...3053001020
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_c...hilosophy)

The answer to everything unknown is Chuck. Chuck Norris.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
31-01-2017, 10:56 PM
RE: give me the best you have got.
(31-01-2017 09:14 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(31-01-2017 08:29 PM)port_of_call Wrote:  I've seen one of the weeping icons while it was still weeping. It was under glass. The fragrance of the oil coming out of it was really nice.

That didn't give you pause?

Not at the time! I was 9 or 10 years old. The icon had all these cotton swabs spread around it to "catch the oil." I don't believe in this anymore, but the fraud is hard to accept as well. I generally believe people are well-intentioned. Why would someone want to trick thousands of people? If it's for money and donations... aren't there easier ways to make a living?

Maybe it started out innocent enough and got blown out of proportion? Once the fame set in, it became impossible to confess the truth? It seems obvious to me, now, that there is much less oversight of these things than I used to think. The priests and bishops parade in and support complex rituals around the thing. And pious people crowd around and they're in emotional distress. So skeptical, thinking people who are also polite aren't going to just march in and tear off the glass.

I'm glad you all can put up with me writing about this stuff. It helps to get it out. Most of my friends are still Orthodox Christian and I'm not ready to talk to them about it.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like port_of_call's post
01-02-2017, 01:47 AM
RE: give me the best you have got.
(31-01-2017 08:29 PM)port_of_call Wrote:  These are the miracles: weeping icons, incorrupt dead bodies, and clairvoyance by holy people. You hear stories about a pilgrim walking up to a monk's cell in the wilderness outside a monastery in Greece, and the monk miraculously knows his name and everything about his life.

All atheists will confirm—as will science—that so-called "miracles" just don't exist. Religious icons are incapable of weeping, and any that've been investigated have been exposed as frauds. Apart from total desiccation in totally dry environment, there is no such thing as an incorruptible, dead human body. Clairvoyance is just wishful thinking, or more often just a swindle by its practitioners to line their pockets from gullible clients.

You may like to check out Looking for a Miracle by Joe Nickell PhD.

Quote:I've seen one of the weeping icons while it was still weeping. It was under glass. The fragrance of the oil coming out of it was really nice.

I'm sorry, but you were deceived by what you think you saw. Inert icons—statues, images, carvings etc—are incapable of weeping, as humans do. There was a very famous fraud some years ago wherein a hollow, glazed terracotta statue of the Virgin Mary had been seen to weep. It turned out that there was a small, internal reservoir of scented olive oil inside the head. The glazing had been scraped off the inside corners of the whites of the eyes, and tadaaaaa... "weeping". All too easy. Just put a gold coin into the church "building fund" as you leave thank you.

Quote:I've visited one here in the USA. It looked like a mummy, and the only skin and bones part I could see were the hands. The rest of the body was covered in robes, and in a shrine with glass on top. I've been told that normally a body would have deteriorated down to bones in the amount of time that had passed.

Unfortunately, you were misinformed about this. In the right environment, bodies just don't deteriorate down to bones—hence the glass casing. It's also of interest that you could only see its hands—how do you know what was under the robes?

Quote:In my own journey to atheism, I often go back to these miracles and think "but what about that? Can you explain that without God?"

I'm not certain as to what you're saying here. Are you still on that journey, that is, are you not yet comfortable with totally discarding your theist outlook? I ask this because you say you "often go back to these miracles", and apparently still give them a degree of credence that could only be explained by the existence of a god.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-02-2017, 04:30 AM
RE: give me the best you have got.
(31-01-2017 07:19 AM)sneroul the thinker Wrote:  Miracles like those i mentioned earlier also many people claim to see jesus, marry angels ect. also near death experiencess demonic possesion . those make me think it might be real. you don't see people seeing thor or baal aleast that i know of.

What does it matter if it was real, you are able to see yourself he is not a character who would be worthy of worship in the case that he existed.

So I'd say, supposing that he existed, fuck him, I'm going with Lucy's army on this one. Goodevil

Also it would very interesting if its mythology turned out to be real despite the evidence pointing otherwise, revelation has some very cool and strange shit happening to the world.

That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.”
-P.C. Hodgell - Seeker’s Mask - Kirien
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-02-2017, 08:14 AM
RE: give me the best you have got.
I personally don't think revelations is a doomsday prophesy I think it represents early Christians. If i am wrong i would root for Lucy. Back to fatima the wikipedia article some guy can't remember his name says that mass hysteria is unlikely although the skeptic websites state it is very likely. Also the second secret states that that russia will rise and eventually fall and the world would enter a period of peace.that did happen although it was written in 1941 it still predicted the fall of the soviet union. it also state that the world wall almost burn or something like that also nearly happend but it is up for intrepetation. when questioned just after the supposed miracle Lucia stated that the virgin marry said nothing of value. Also another Marian aparation the akita one this time said that God was about to inflict the worst punishment yet. this was at the hight of the cold war. that one seems to contradict the earlier one and it did not happen.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-02-2017, 12:11 PM
RE: give me the best you have got.
(01-02-2017 08:14 AM)sneroul the thinker Wrote:  I personally don't think revelations is a doomsday prophesy I think it represents early Christians. If i am wrong i would root for Lucy. Back to fatima the wikipedia article some guy can't remember his name says that mass hysteria is unlikely although the skeptic websites state it is very likely. Also the second secret states that that russia will rise and eventually fall and the world would enter a period of peace.that did happen although it was written in 1941 it still predicted the fall of the soviet union. it also state that the world wall almost burn or something like that also nearly happend but it is up for intrepetation. when questioned just after the supposed miracle Lucia stated that the virgin marry said nothing of value. Also another Marian aparation the akita one this time said that God was about to inflict the worst punishment yet. this was at the hight of the cold war. that one seems to contradict the earlier one and it did not happen.

The thing you have to ask is why is this "omnipotent" god such a terrible and ineffective communicator?

Why wouldn't he just create his own Youtube channel to explain himself or directly communicate in precise and unequivocal ways to people that's not open to interpretation?

If there really is something to communicate to people, why is this god such a bumbling fool?

A dancing light in the sky? Really? What the hell does that communicate exactly?

That god exists? If god wanted to communicate that bit of information, then I think it would've been done more effectively than to a select group of Catholic believers.

From the standpoint of the Protestant Christian sect I was in, Catholics were simply deceived by the devil. How would you determine the difference between a Satanic vision and a heavenly vision?

Here's some common scripture I would hear from my pastor and people in my former church:

2 Thessalonians 2:9 -The coming of the lawless one will be accompanied by the working of Satan, with every kind of power, sign, and false wonder.

2 Corinthians 11:14 -And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.


So I was told repeatedly that such signs are a way for Satan to deceive people, that this was going to be rampant "In the last days" before the second coming.

The verse in Corinthians pretty much describes the entire Fatima incident.

Not only that, you don't have to explain god's imbecilic methods at terrible communication, it makes perfect sense if Satan was trying to deceive people and get them to join the Mary cult/Catholics.

Of course this sets up the prospect that no apparition is ever to be trusted, i.e. non-falsifiable.

A broken clock is right twice a day I suppose......

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-02-2017, 12:19 PM
RE: give me the best you have got.
(01-02-2017 08:14 AM)sneroul the thinker Wrote:  I personally don't think revelations is a doomsday prophesy I think it represents early Christians. If i am wrong i would root for Lucy. Back to fatima the wikipedia article some guy can't remember his name says that mass hysteria is unlikely although the skeptic websites state it is very likely. Also the second secret states that that russia will rise and eventually fall and the world would enter a period of peace.that did happen although it was written in 1941 it still predicted the fall of the soviet union. it also state that the world wall almost burn or something like that also nearly happend but it is up for intrepetation. when questioned just after the supposed miracle Lucia stated that the virgin marry said nothing of value. Also another Marian aparation the akita one this time said that God was about to inflict the worst punishment yet. this was at the hight of the cold war. that one seems to contradict the earlier one and it did not happen.

I would encourage you to immerse yourself in learning about who wrote the bible and why, if you strip away all of the miracle claims and realize it's just mythology, then it no longer has a hold over one's mind. Here is a great series:

Introduction to the Old Testament with Christine Hayes








Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes TheInquisition's post
01-02-2017, 07:38 PM
RE: give me the best you have got.
(01-02-2017 01:47 AM)SYZ Wrote:  
(31-01-2017 08:29 PM)port_of_call Wrote:  
Quote:In my own journey to atheism, I often go back to these miracles and think "but what about that? Can you explain that without God?"

I'm not certain as to what you're saying here. Are you still on that journey, that is, are you not yet comfortable with totally discarding your theist outlook? I ask this because you say you "often go back to these miracles", and apparently still give them a degree of credence that could only be explained by the existence of a god.
Yep, it's a process. Religion has provided a familiar sort of comfort to me for a long time. A lot of my go-to thought processes include some reference to god. As one example, I'm working on contemplating beauty (sunrises, snowflakes, etc.) by itself, without going through a praise ritual to a deity.

On the flip side, religion has also given me plenty of pointless discomfort, so it's easier to shake off in that sense.

"Going back to the miracles," for me, means going back to the people I love who continue to be tied up in religion while I'm breaking free. I trust them, so I have to believe they're either blind or malicious, to perpetuate these beliefs. I've been trained to trust the church hierarchs who get behind these miracle claims. As I mentioned above, I don't understand the motivation for this kind of fraud. There are much easier ways to earn money, if that's what it's about. And deceit is painful to carry around with you! I'm hopeful that most people are just blind. I can see that the ritual, piety, and physical surroundings (glass, cotton wads, robes) make it possible for people to stay blind. So when someone has the guts to perpetuate a fraud, the way is paved for them to do so. I used to think the church hierarchy was good at exposing nonsense. But the opposite is true.

*edited to fix quotes
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-02-2017, 08:14 PM
RE: give me the best you have got.
(31-01-2017 09:01 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  Look at history. When a civilization dies so do their gods.

I have to correct this. Rome was pagan from 700 BC through AD 330. It was Christian from AD 330 until 29 May, 1453.

Rome remains today as catholic. Currently 3 billion "Romans" worldwide.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
Banjo.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-02-2017, 10:22 PM
RE: give me the best you have got.
(01-02-2017 08:14 PM)Banjo Wrote:  
(31-01-2017 09:01 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  Look at history. When a civilization dies so do their gods.

I have to correct this. Rome was pagan from 700 BC through AD 330. It was Christian from AD 330 until 29 May, 1453.

Rome remains today as catholic. Currently 3 billion "Romans" worldwide.

Help me out here, Dale. How does the fall of Constantinople make Rome not Christian? Consider

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: