god just got up one morn .....
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01-01-2017, 05:48 PM
RE: god just got up one morn .....
(25-03-2016 08:27 AM)god has no twitter account Wrote:  Some xtians think that the Universe is 6,000 years old.

The rest of the thinking world think that the Universe is about 13.8 billion years ago.

It doesn't matter how old the Universe is, for the purpose of this exercise) because what came next is just as ludicrous, regardless of how old it is.

So god got up one morning 13.8 billion or 6,000 years ago and just created a universe?

Really?

Why on that particular day 6,000/13.8 billion years ago?

Discuss:


Question: What was God doing before he created the Universe?

Saint Augustine: Creating hell for those who ask too many questions.

Yog Sothoth! Yog Sothoth! Come back old ones! Yog Sothoth!

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01-01-2017, 06:04 PM
RE: god just got up one morn .....
(26-04-2016 08:08 PM)natachan Wrote:  There are different theologies and different ways of looking at and framing the question depending on what kind of Christian you are.

Some say that God, being timeless, was in a sort of stasis before the universe. They will argue that with the creation of the universe God created time. Others will equate the universe with part of gods being.

Augustine, in his work "Confessions", Book 11, Augustine writes about God and time. He reasons God is sovereign over time so he is literally outside of time. Creation then can have no before, now and after, creation is eternally, timelessly happening. But of course, if all is One Big Now, all is, including God's relationship with any part of the Bog Now and its contents. So all is as it is and cannot change, because it is. Nobody then has free will including God.

Theologians hotly debate God and time and have filled small libraries with the debate. If there is time and God must be subject to time, where does this time come from, so powerful even God is affected by time.

Yog Sothoth! Yog Sothoth! Come back old ones! Yog Sothoth!

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01-01-2017, 07:01 PM
RE: god just got up one morn .....
(01-01-2017 06:04 PM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote:  
(26-04-2016 08:08 PM)natachan Wrote:  There are different theologies and different ways of looking at and framing the question depending on what kind of Christian you are.

Some say that God, being timeless, was in a sort of stasis before the universe. They will argue that with the creation of the universe God created time. Others will equate the universe with part of gods being.

Augustine, in his work "Confessions", Book 11, Augustine writes about God and time. He reasons God is sovereign over time so he is literally outside of time. Creation then can have no before, now and after, creation is eternally, timelessly happening. But of course, if all is One Big Now, all is, including God's relationship with any part of the Bog Now and its contents. So all is as it is and cannot change, because it is. Nobody then has free will including God.

Theologians hotly debate God and time and have filled small libraries with the debate. If there is time and God must be subject to time, where does this time come from, so powerful even God is affected by time.

While I agree that time is a product of the universe (a dimension, in fact), and therefore The Creator God™ by every various definition I've heard would be outside of all dimensions and thus outside of time... we find it amusing that the same people who postulate such a deity would be the first to ask us, "So you think the universe just appeared all of a sudden out of nothing?" (Or else they claim the Big Bang is proof of God because it's a beginning.)

Well, time being a product of the universe itself, and all that, so... no.

They want it both ways. God can be uncaused, but not the universe. God can be outside of time, such that there is no "before" creation, but the universe must be considered to start at some point in time.

The silly part of it all, to me, was already pointed out by Commonsensei. The notion that the creator of a billion billion stars, most of which we now know have planets, chose to make us because he was lonely?

That's the most obviously anthropocentric egotism I could imagine, on our part. Granted, Jesus said that God cares about the sparrow, and thus we could extend that idea to all the billions of likely types of alien life out there, but the notion that there is a deity that especially cares not only about us (edit: the bipedal great apes on the 3rd rock from a middle yellow dwarf star on the back edge of one spiral arm of a middling galaxy out of hundreds of billions of such galaxies) but about our behavior, and demands we give it worship and subservient obeisance, is even worse.

How can people not plainly see that it is the priests (and prophets, etc.) of the cultures that wrote these scriptures that want obedience and subservience from their fellow humans? How is it not plainly obvious that a deity that "desires" the claims of these scriptures is not only pathetic, but unworthy of such demanded worship-- especially with the threat of hell?

Humans can't survive in the presence of God unless we're sanctified magically?

Okay. Fine. Why not just let us die like every other animal on the planet, then?

Why create flawed creatures, hide from 99.999% of them (if one believes the intermittent appearances claimed in the stories, of course), and then torment the ones who don't find the evidence anywhere near convincing?

No. That's humans trying to coerce other humans. And if that's not plainly obvious to you, then all I can do is feel pity for you and anyone else willing to submit themselves to the creature portrayed in these stories/claims.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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02-01-2017, 08:09 AM
RE: god just got up one morn .....
The Universe is everything that exists. If there is a God, God is part if the Universe. If we need to explain where the Universe came, the God bit of it needs explaining too. Special pleading isn't exactly a good argument.

How is it God is omnipotent, omniscient and intelligent and all these other things? Theists: We don't have to explain anything, God is incomprehensible.

Yog Sothoth! Yog Sothoth! Come back old ones! Yog Sothoth!

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02-01-2017, 08:47 AM
RE: god just got up one morn .....
(01-01-2017 06:04 PM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote:  Theologians hotly debate God and time and have filled small libraries with the debate. If there is time and God must be subject to time, where does this time come from, so powerful even God is affected by time.

Coincidentally, I'm breaking out some of the good stuff I saved from back in the day to help me wade through Heidegger's Being and Time. It's not helping.

"We do not say: Being is, time is, but rather: there is Being and there is time."

Blink

"Being and time determine each other reciprocally, but in such a manner that neither can the former - Being - be addressed as something temporal nor can the latter - time - be addressed as a being."

Ah, so that's what you meant. Blink Blink

"We name time when we say: every thing has its time. This means: everything which actually is, every being comes and goes at the right time and remains for a time during the time allotted to it. Every thing has its time."

Um, okay. I think I can almost understand that.






"To think Being itself explicitly requires disregarding Being to the extent that it is only grounded and interpreted in terms of beings and for beings as their ground, as in all metaphysics."

And now you're just dicking with me. You can just gelassenheit and geworfenheit my fat ass.

#sigh
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04-01-2017, 02:01 AM
RE: god just got up one morn .....
(02-01-2017 08:47 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(01-01-2017 06:04 PM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote:  Theologians hotly debate God and time and have filled small libraries with the debate. If there is time and God must be subject to time, where does this time come from, so powerful even God is affected by time.

Coincidentally, I'm breaking out some of the good stuff I saved from back in the day to help me wade through Heidegger's Being and Time. It's not helping.

"We do not say: Being is, time is, but rather: there is Being and there is time."

Blink

"Being and time determine each other reciprocally, but in such a manner that neither can the former - Being - be addressed as something temporal nor can the latter - time - be addressed as a being."

Ah, so that's what you meant. Blink Blink

"We name time when we say: every thing has its time. This means: everything which actually is, every being comes and goes at the right time and remains for a time during the time allotted to it. Every thing has its time."

Um, okay. I think I can almost understand that.






"To think Being itself explicitly requires disregarding Being to the extent that it is only grounded and interpreted in terms of beings and for beings as their ground, as in all metaphysics."

And now you're just dicking with me. You can just gelassenheit and geworfenheit my fat ass.

Then there are compromise theories like William Craig Lane uses. God was outside of time before creation, created time and now is within time. God is transcendental to creation and thus not subject to the Universe until that was created.

Of course we are back to Augustine's paradox. If there is no time for God, (before creation) creation must be eternal, and an infinite state of existence, part of the Big Now.

WCLs dodge doesn't seem to work. I never bothered much with Heidegger. To be sure it was mere prejudice. Playing footsie with the Nazi party doesn't seem to me indicating good judgment.

If God creates all in a timeless sense, there is no A causes B causes C. God decides A will be A, B will be B, C will be C and so on. So every bit of the Big Now that collectively is the life of John Smith, is a creation of God, including all John Smith does, including all moral evil. We can have no free will and all that God created including moral evil is God's doing.

I don't see how WCL's dodge fixes the problem. And if God creates time and steps into time, he still is only essentially playing a game, he is not really irrevocabaly and strictly subject to time. God is still outside time in the final analysis.

Yog Sothoth! Yog Sothoth! Come back old ones! Yog Sothoth!

Cheerful Charlie
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04-01-2017, 06:13 AM
RE: god just got up one morn .....
(24-07-2016 02:50 AM)Rondonmon Wrote:  God created everything of course, to have relationships, If you were on earth by yourself, and had the ability to create, you would create others no doubt, unless you are a loner.
...
As per God being a bully or whatever some call him. God understands, no sinners can come in His presence, His Glory would destroy them, this is why he had to leave Jesus on the cross when the sins were upon him. Jesus asked, Why did you foresake me. In the same mode, sin will destroy all who cling to it, because it separates us from God. So God is trying to teach us how to gain life, because there is nothing but death outside of God. And He doesn't control us, He gives us free will, to choose Him or reject Him. We will live with Him which is life or reject Him which is death. He gives us our own choice.

This line of reasoning only works if you're willing to picture God as a narcissist with severe self-esteem issues. The end conclusion is a god that gives us the capacity to rape and murder so he can tell who his real friends are by seeing if they either don't rape and murder, or if they say they're sorry after they do.

It's not only the creepiest sort of friendship test you can imagine, but it's also completely pointless for someone who can read minds and see the future.

Once it's all boiled down, unless you strip a lot of power away from God, rapes and murders happen solely because he wants them to, and for no reason else.
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04-01-2017, 08:01 AM
RE: god just got up one morn .....
(25-03-2016 08:27 AM)god has no twitter account Wrote:  Some xtians think that the Universe is 6,000 years old.

The rest of the thinking world think that the Universe is about 13.8 billion years ago.

It doesn't matter how old the Universe is, for the purpose of this exercise) because what came next is just as ludicrous, regardless of how old it is.

So god got up one morning 13.8 billion or 6,000 years ago and just created a universe?

Really?

Why on that particular day 6,000/13.8 billion years ago?

Discuss:


What?

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04-01-2017, 04:28 PM
RE: god just got up one morn .....
(04-01-2017 02:01 AM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote:  
(02-01-2017 08:47 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Coincidentally, I'm breaking out some of the good stuff I saved from back in the day to help me wade through Heidegger's Being and Time. It's not helping.

"We do not say: Being is, time is, but rather: there is Being and there is time."

Blink

"Being and time determine each other reciprocally, but in such a manner that neither can the former - Being - be addressed as something temporal nor can the latter - time - be addressed as a being."

Ah, so that's what you meant. Blink Blink

"We name time when we say: every thing has its time. This means: everything which actually is, every being comes and goes at the right time and remains for a time during the time allotted to it. Every thing has its time."

Um, okay. I think I can almost understand that.






"To think Being itself explicitly requires disregarding Being to the extent that it is only grounded and interpreted in terms of beings and for beings as their ground, as in all metaphysics."

And now you're just dicking with me. You can just gelassenheit and geworfenheit my fat ass.

Then there are compromise theories like William Craig Lane uses. God was outside of time before creation, created time and now is within time. God is transcendental to creation and thus not subject to the Universe until that was created.

Of course we are back to Augustine's paradox. If there is no time for God, (before creation) creation must be eternal, and an infinite state of existence, part of the Big Now.

WCLs dodge doesn't seem to work. I never bothered much with Heidegger. To be sure it was mere prejudice. Playing footsie with the Nazi party doesn't seem to me indicating good judgment.

If God creates all in a timeless sense, there is no A causes B causes C. God decides A will be A, B will be B, C will be C and so on. So every bit of the Big Now that collectively is the life of John Smith, is a creation of God, including all John Smith does, including all moral evil. We can have no free will and all that God created including moral evil is God's doing.

I don't see how WCL's dodge fixes the problem. And if God creates time and steps into time, he still is only essentially playing a game, he is not really irrevocabaly and strictly subject to time. God is still outside time in the final analysis.

There is, in fact, no problem. It is all made up shit. Drinking Beverage

Theologians waste everyone's time.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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05-01-2017, 12:47 AM
RE: god just got up one morn .....
(04-01-2017 04:28 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(04-01-2017 02:01 AM)Cheerful Charlie Wrote:  Then there are compromise theories like William Craig Lane uses. God was outside of time before creation, created time and now is within time. God is transcendental to creation and thus not subject to the Universe until that was created.

Of course we are back to Augustine's paradox. If there is no time for God, (before creation) creation must be eternal, and an infinite state of existence, part of the Big Now.

WCLs dodge doesn't seem to work. I never bothered much with Heidegger. To be sure it was mere prejudice. Playing footsie with the Nazi party doesn't seem to me indicating good judgment.

If God creates all in a timeless sense, there is no A causes B causes C. God decides A will be A, B will be B, C will be C and so on. So every bit of the Big Now that collectively is the life of John Smith, is a creation of God, including all John Smith does, including all moral evil. We can have no free will and all that God created including moral evil is God's doing.

I don't see how WCL's dodge fixes the problem. And if God creates time and steps into time, he still is only essentially playing a game, he is not really irrevocabaly and strictly subject to time. God is still outside time in the final analysis.

There is, in fact, no problem. It is all made up shit. Drinking Beverage

Theologians waste everyone's time.


If God creates all outside of time, God gets responsibility for all moral evil. It's a problem.

If God is subject to time like all of us, it implies that God is also subject to all of physics. Relativityy shows our dimensions, mass, and flow of time varies with our velocity, a deep connection with all of physics. Or in other words, naturalism rules. So much for supernaturalism. For basic Christian dogma of a transcendental God, it's a problem. A good reason to support atheism. Time and God are a bad mix.

It's a problem. For theism.

Yog Sothoth! Yog Sothoth! Come back old ones! Yog Sothoth!

Cheerful Charlie
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