goodwithoutgod and Jeremy Walker. Round table one on one
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25-06-2014, 05:31 PM (This post was last modified: 25-06-2014 05:39 PM by goodwithoutgod.)
RE: goodwithoutgod and Jeremy Walker. Round table one on one
Quote:How did you arrive at the conclusion that "the church leaders" developed doctrine to reflect Jesus Christ's fulfilling of God's will through active obedience? Who are these "church leaders" you are referring to?

As the fable was fabricated, to include writing the NT to reflect the OT to give it authenticity, like the weak attempt by apologists to say jesus was foretold in the OT, when in fact the NT was written to match the stories "foretold" in the OT. Emperor Constantine had a big influence, as did the Nicene Council in the development of the triune god theory, and the subjugating scriptures in order to control the masses.

Now let’s go back in time to the very formation, fabrication of the Christian faith, the Trinity concept and successful establishment of the Christian religion. We must begin with the immeasurable impact that Emperor Constantine had on the spread of Christianity, and successful suppression of incumbent Roman pagan beliefs. Legend has it that Emperor Constantine saw two stars cross in the sky, in which he took to be a sign from God that Christianity was the only true faith. While his conversion to Christianity in 312 was not truly the moment Christianity came to be the official religion of the Roman Empire, it definitely was one of the major contributing factors for its subsequent acceptance.

Emperor Constantine conducted a religious-based crusade against Licinius in a war to rescue Christians on the east from further persecution. In the years 312 to 313 Emperor Constantine began a systematic policy in which he gave honors, privileges and financial donations to the Christian church and their clergy. In 324, at the unchallenged controller of the East, he prohibited by Royal decree any cultic activities which until then fell under the traditional religions of the Roman Empire, and this is when the status of Christianity as the official religion of the state and its rulers was affirmed (Lieu 7).

Religious scholars concede that Emperor Constantine not only convened important council’s sessions, but also either presided over them, or appointed a Royal official to preside in his place. This reduced the very role of bishops and councils such as Nicaea and Tyre to utter insignificance by assimilating them to members of the Imperial consilium, whose advice was not binding on the Emperor. All decisions taken at the Nicene Council were made by Emperor Constantine alone, since he could completely disregard the advisory opinions of the bishops whom he had summoned to the Council (Lieu 8).

Some scholars contend that Emperor Constantine’s influence was minimal, and merely sat in on the councils out of personal interest. However, when we look at the Council of Nicaea of 359, we see that Emperor Constantine again took a prominent role of control in the theological debate. Once the foundation of Christianity as a predominant religion of the Empire had been successfully established, Emperor Constantine later relinquished some of his control and influence by putting a seal of approval on the rulings of bishops declared at councils. The governors of provinces were not even allowed to rescind what they had decided, for he said the priests of God were more trustworthy than any magistrate (Lieu 10).

We can trace back the very beginning of the entitlement mentality by church hierarchy to Emperor Constantine and his enabling policies. No matter what his crime, a bishop could only be deposed and exiled, not legally tortured and executed (Lieu 17). I am sure this was fundamental in developing the culture within the church of dealing with any indiscretions internally, and not invoking the authority of the legal system. This of course has led to much abuse throughout history. One has only to watch the news these days to see on a routine basis, some priest or other has been exposed for having performed a plethora of transgressions, hidden by the church by simply moving the clergy member to a new area. This mentality just exposes more people to being victimized.

On the basis of Christian faith and the Trinity concept; the father, the son and the Holy Spirit, the first Council of Nicaea in 325 called together by Emperor Constantine, worked to establish a settlement of the issue of the relationship between father and the son. The focus primarily was on defining Jesus Christ as a deity. Establishment of the Holy Spirit was largely unaddressed until after the father and son relationship was settled in 362. After Nicaea, some bishops continued to prefer a term which had been discussed and rejected by the Council: homoiousios, in the sense of the son ‘being of like substance’ with the father.

There were other bishops who were antagonistic to the term homoiousios because it was not biblical (O’Collins 184). Seven years later, the Trinitarian terminology was officially adopted after first Council Constantinople.
In its letter to Pope Damascus, a post conciliar synod confessed ‘one divinity, power, or substance’ in ‘three most perfect hypostasesin’ (O’Collins 185). At the Trinitarian level, Constantinople I reaffirmed the Nicene Council confession of faith that the son was ’of one substance’ with the father, as well as teaching the divinity of the Holy Spirit (O’Collins 186). Thus, the official establishment of Christian doctrine regarding the Trinity of the father, the son, and the Holy Spirit was initiated.

works cited

Lieu, Samuel N. C., and Montserrat, Dominic, Constantine: History, Historiography, and Legend. London: Routledge, 2002. Print.

O'Collins, Gerald, Christology: A Biblical, Historical, and Systematic Study of Jesus. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2009. Print.

Quote:What cycle are you referring to? How/why is it endless? Why do you see it as bowing and scraping in deference to the Creator's self-centered will and ego? Why do you say God is "obsessed" with having people bow and scrape and defer to Him?

The endless cycle of life, birth and death, ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Someone else is born, rinse and repeat. Because it IS bowing and scraping to a alleged creator's ego. *poof* let there be life, now worship me...no wait, I give you the choice to worship me, but if you don't you spend eternity in hell...sure sounds...well made up now doesn't it? "god" is obsessed with the groveling, so much so that he sliced off some of his holy spiritness to go down and die for our horrible sins of eating an apple, and of course since he is all knowing, surely he knew that wouldn't fix the perpetual problem of man's never ending sin.

Speaking of hell;

"We begin with a reminder of limitations of our language. Since hell, according to Christian doctrine, is a supernatural reality, it can only be described in analogies. Holy Scripture teaches us the essence of hell in images. When it speaks of the fire of hell, it is not to be understood in a grossly realistic sense. The images of fire and pain were ways of expressing the essential Christian understanding of hell – that it is a separation from God. We may define heaven as simply being with God, and hell, in contrast, is simply being without God. It is thus an existence without goodness and without meaning.(Albl 188)"

work cited:

Albl, Martin C. Reason, Faith, and Tradition: Explorations in Catholic Theology. Winona: Anselm Academic, Christian Brothers Publications, 2009. Print.

"God requires mankind to obey and live a life of perpetual obedience (Mattison 1)"

As I pointed out, seems so beneath this mythical "god" to need such ego stroking.

Quote:Why do you think God sent part of His Own Body down in the form of a man? Why do you claim it was done to satisfy God's "ego" requirement?

Did you read my paper? As per the references, god demands justice, a price must be paid, knowing lowly mankind can't pay the debt, he "paid" it for us by sending down his "son" to pay it for us. So basically he demands justice, and to satisfy that need, he sends part of himself, to be killed, to satisfy his desire for the debt to be paid...such mumbo jumbo BS to be honest....and a bit psychotic.

Quote:What makes God magical?

How else would you describe a super genie that can *poof* create everything in 6 days? Sounds pretty magical to me....like a big genie.

Quote:Why do you think God is manipulating life for entertainment?


why else create the whole world, as per this delusional anthropocentric faith's belief, all for the glory of man kind, so he can sit back and watch millions die in war, of disease, each other while declaring this made up god or that one....like a big interactive video game

Quote:Why must it be a creation of man's imagination?

because it is. Man created the concept, it went from nature gods, to weather gods, to great gods of greek and roman lore, to emperor constantine's god. If it wasn't for emperor constantine, the world's biggest fan club would be Mithraism...as that was the dominant religion before the emperor declared christianty the official religion.

Quote:How/why is the theological concept of atonement a fabrication of much thought and introspective philosophy?

because it is a fabrication, the theory didn't poof out of the thin air on a piece of papyrus.

Quote:I ask you to provide your arguments and evidence for claiming that some portions of the New Testament were written 200 years after the facts they purport to record.

The formulation of the NT was a collective effort. Clement of Rome mentioned at least eight New Testament books (A.D. 95). Ignatius of Antioch acknowledged about seven books (A.D. 115). Polycarp, a disciple of John the apostle, acknowledged 15 books (A.D. 108). Later, Irenaeus mentioned 21 books (A.D. 185). Hippolytus recognized 22 books (A.D. 170-235). The New Testament books receiving the most controversy were Hebrews, James, 2 Peter, 2 John, and 3 John.

The first “canon” was the Muratorian Canon, which was compiled in A.D. 170. The Muratorian Canon included all of the New Testament books except Hebrews, James, and 3 John. In A.D. 363, the Council of Laodicea stated that only the Old Testament (along with the Apocrypha) and the 27 books of the New Testament were to be read in the churches. The Council of Hippo (A.D. 393) and the Council of Carthage (A.D. 397) also affirmed the same 27 books as authoritative.

Do the math. Then look at the Nicene council 321-325 ad.

Quote:Someone did write about it. That is why we are discussing it. We have at least one written account of both of the above happening.

You missed the point, again. No one AT THE TIME mentioned it. It took 200 years for people who had never even witnessed these events to write the fable down. If it had happened, someone AT THE TIME would have written about this amazing event.

Quote:I basically see you dismiss historical accounts on the basis that those who wrote them were not eyewitnesses to the events they recorded.

First saying a man named jesus was walking on water, rising from the dead, etc is not a historical account when the only mention of these magical stories were penned by believers many years after the event, while the deafening silence of any contemporary writers and recorders of history fail to mention these "events". So yes, eyewitness at the time accounts by non biased, neutral sources would be evidence worth considering, sadly it doesn't exist. When you make extraordinary, supernatural claims, it requires evidence beyond three hundred years later someone writes down a popular myth as fact.

Quote:If that is your reason, then you must also dismiss all other historical accounts that were written by historians who were not eyewitnesses of the accounts they record.

False logic. You see, let's take oh I don't know...george washington for example. I have never met george washington, how do I know he existed? Unlike jesus where No one has the slightest physical evidence to support a historical Jesus; no artifacts, dwelling, works of carpentry, or self-written manuscripts. All claims about Jesus derive from writings of other people. There occurs no contemporary Roman record that shows Pontius Pilate executing a man named Jesus. Devastating to historians, there occurs not a single contemporary writing that mentions Jesus. All documents about Jesus came well after the life of the alleged Jesus from either: unknown authors, people who had never met an earthly Jesus, or from fraudulent, mythical or allegorical writings. All sources about Jesus derive from hearsay accounts...there IS evidence of george washington, dwelling, writings, articles of clothing...get the point?

Quote:If, in order to dismiss the New Testament writings, you have to become a historical skeptic, then that is a choice you must make.

How can one NOT be a skeptic? There is ZERO empirical evidence for this super being, miracle performing, flying through the sky after death son of a made up god...ZERO. The shocking thing is how this fable has had such staying power.

You imply, “my belief is based on very strong and credible direct testimony from reliable eyewitnesses” .... mmm, wait, no actually it's not. What you mean to say is My belief is based on the copies of the translations of the copies of the translations of the copies of the oral retelling of the oral retelling of the oral retelling of the oral retelling of the oral retelling of a tale that may or may not have been originally told by apostles who may or may not actually have ever existed and may or may not have witnessed the events and may or may not have told them accurately"

Quote:You have provided nothing in the way of argumentation or evidence as to why we cannot accept as accurate, historical accounts that were written by people not contemporaneous with the events they record.

I have provided a plethora of evidence to show that no one who wrote of jesus, knew jesus, thus it is all based on heresay. Heresay is not evidence, and when one makes an extraordinary, supernatural, unbelievable claim, one needs evidence. The world going dark midday, corpses bursting out of tombs and walking around, etc these things would get people's attention and it would have been recorded AT THE TIME.

Some people actually believe that just because so much voice and ink has spread the word of a character named Jesus throughout history, that this must mean that he actually lived. This argument simply does not hold. The number of people who believe or write about something or the professional degrees they hold say nothing at all about fact. Facts derive out of evidence, not from hearsay, not from hubris scholars, and certainly not from faithful believers. Regardless of the position or admiration held by a scholar, believer, or priest, if he or she cannot support a hypothesis with good evidence, then it can only remain a hypothesis.

While a likely possibility exists that an actual Jesus lived, another likely possibility reveals that a mythology could have derived out of earlier mythologies or possibly independent archetypal hero worship. Although we have no evidence for a historical Jesus, we certainly have many accounts of mythologies from the Middle East during the first century and before. Many of these stories appear similar to the Christ saviour story.

Just before and during the first century, the Jews had prophesied about an upcoming Messiah based on Jewish scripture. Their beliefs influenced many of their followers. We know that powerful beliefs can create self-fulfilling prophesies, and surely this proved just as true in ancient times. It served as a popular dream expressed in Hebrew Scripture for the promise of an "end-time" with a savior to lead them to the promised land. Indeed, Roman records show executions of several would-be Messiahs, (but not a single record mentions a Jesus). Many ancients believed that there could come a final war against the "Sons of Darkness"-- the Romans.

This then could very well have served as the ignition and flame for the future growth of Christianity. Biblical scholars tell us that the early Christians lived within pagan communities. Jewish scriptural beliefs coupled with the pagan myths of the time give sufficient information about how such a religion could have formed. Many of the Hellenistic and pagan myths parallel so closely to the alleged Jesus that to ignore its similarities means to ignore the mythological beliefs of history. Dozens of similar savior stories propagated the minds of humans long before the alleged life of Jesus. Virtually nothing about Jesus "the Christ" came to the Christians as original or new.

For example, the religion of Zoroaster, founded circa 628-551 B.C.E. in ancient Persia, roused mankind in the need for hating a devil, the belief of a paradise, last judgment and resurrection of the dead. Mithraism, an offshoot of Zoroastrianism probably influenced early Christianity. The Magi described in the New Testament appears as Zoroastrian priests. Note the word "paradise" came from the Persian pairidaeza.

Osiris, Hercules, Hermes, Prometheus, Perseus, Romulus, and others compare to the Christian myth. According to Patrick Campbell of The Mythical Jesus, all served as pre-Christian sun gods, yet all allegedly had gods for fathers, virgins for mothers; had their births announced by stars; got born on the solstice around December 25th; had tyrants who tried to kill them in their infancy; met violent deaths; rose from the dead; and nearly all got worshiped by "wise men" and had allegedly fasted for forty days.

Even Justin Martyr recognized the analogies between Christianity and Paganism. To the Pagans, he wrote: "When we say that the Word, who is first born of God, was produced without sexual union, and that he, Jesus Christ, our teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven; we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter (Zeus)."

Virtually all of the mythical accounts of a savior Jesus have parallels to past pagan mythologies which existed long before Christianity and from the Jewish scriptures that we now call the Old Testament. The accounts of these myths say nothing about historical reality, but they do say a lot about believers, how they believed, and how their beliefs spread.

In closing, Faith is the delusion, belief without evidence. Faith is pretending to know things that you dont know. To say "I have faith in god" really means "I pretend to know things I don't know about god"....

Over to you.

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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30-06-2014, 08:17 AM (This post was last modified: 30-06-2014 08:23 AM by goodwithoutgod.)
RE: goodwithoutgod and Jeremy Walker. Round table one on one
hmmmm did I enter the ring swinging too hard right off the bat and knock Jeremy completely out of the ring? Consider

Perhaps he is researching, studying and googling a response. I made my original posits in about 5 mins from my files, and my reply in about 45 mins. I am a busy man as well, between wife, 4 kids, career, exercise obsession and full time college student but come on..... Smartass Unsure

Just kidding Jeremy, take your time, I know you are in it with Phoenix at the moment, i am busy here, too, took a week vacation and spending my days between the gym, water country and busch gardens.

Drinking Beverage

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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30-06-2014, 06:00 PM
RE: goodwithoutgod and Jeremy Walker. Round table one on one
(30-06-2014 08:17 AM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  hmmmm did I enter the ring swinging too hard right off the bat and knock Jeremy completely out of the ring? Consider

Perhaps he is researching, studying and googling a response. I made my original posits in about 5 mins from my files, and my reply in about 45 mins. I am a busy man as well, between wife, 4 kids, career, exercise obsession and full time college student but come on..... Smartass Unsure

Just kidding Jeremy, take your time, I know you are in it with Phoenix at the moment, i am busy here, too, took a week vacation and spending my days between the gym, water country and busch gardens.

Drinking Beverage

Yea lol thanks! I do not want to rush with my response. Thank you for being understanding.
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30-06-2014, 06:18 PM
RE: goodwithoutgod and Jeremy Walker. Round table one on one
(30-06-2014 06:00 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(30-06-2014 08:17 AM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  hmmmm did I enter the ring swinging too hard right off the bat and knock Jeremy completely out of the ring? Consider

Perhaps he is researching, studying and googling a response. I made my original posits in about 5 mins from my files, and my reply in about 45 mins. I am a busy man as well, between wife, 4 kids, career, exercise obsession and full time college student but come on..... Smartass Unsure

Just kidding Jeremy, take your time, I know you are in it with Phoenix at the moment, i am busy here, too, took a week vacation and spending my days between the gym, water country and busch gardens.

Drinking Beverage

Yea lol thanks! I do not want to rush with my response. Thank you for being understanding.

Thumbsup

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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01-07-2014, 06:31 PM
RE: goodwithoutgod and Jeremy Walker. Round table one on one
(25-06-2014 05:31 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Thus, the official establishment of Christian doctrine regarding the Trinity of the father, the son, and the Holy Spirit was initiated.

Your phrase "official establishment" is key. You supplied all that you did to essentially say that the doctrine of the trinity was for the first time endorsed by the Roman Empire while Constantine was emperor.

To this I would reply, even if I agree, what follows?

What was your point? If your point was to say that that was when the doctrine of the trinity first became a part of Christian theology then you are wrong.

The doctrine of the trinity is implied in the gospels and explicitly mentioned in numerous writings of the early church fathers which predate the time of Constantine by more than a hundred years.


(25-06-2014 05:31 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  The endless cycle of life, birth and death, ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Someone else is born, rinse and repeat. Because it IS bowing and scraping to a alleged creator's ego. *poof* let there be life, now worship me...no wait, I give you the choice to worship me, but if you don't you spend eternity in hell...sure sounds...well made up now doesn't it? "god" is obsessed with the groveling, so much so that he sliced off some of his holy spiritness to go down and die for our horrible sins of eating an apple, and of course since he is all knowing, surely he knew that wouldn't fix the perpetual problem of man's never ending sin.

I respect your opinion. I disagree with it but I respect that it is your opinion. I do not want to focus too much on opinions however.

(25-06-2014 05:31 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  As I pointed out, seems so beneath this mythical "god" to need such ego stroking.

I respect your opinion. I disagree with it, but I respect it. Once again, let us try to refrain from making arguments based on opinion. Now if you have some type of argument about how the doctrine of hell somehow supports atheism then present it. I would like to see it.

(25-06-2014 05:31 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  he sends part of himself, to be killed, to satisfy his desire for the debt to be paid...such mumbo jumbo BS to be honest....and a bit psychotic.

God did not send a "part" of Himself. God's essence is not divisible into parts.

Once again, I know you think Christianity to be foolish. The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing Paul said nearly 2,000 years ago.

(25-06-2014 05:31 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  because it is. Man created the concept, it went from nature gods, to weather gods, to great gods of greek and roman lore, to emperor constantine's god. If it wasn't for emperor constantine, the world's biggest fan club would be Mithraism...as that was the dominant religion before the emperor declared christianty the official religion.

"Because it is", is no more a convincing response than me saying that God's existence is a fact "because it is".


(25-06-2014 05:31 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  because it is a fabrication, the theory didn't poof out of the thin air on a piece of papyrus.

See above.

Quote:I ask you to provide your arguments and evidence for claiming that some portions of the New Testament were written 200 years after the facts they purport to record.

(25-06-2014 05:31 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  The formulation of the NT was a collective effort. Clement of Rome mentioned at least eight New Testament books (A.D. 95). Ignatius of Antioch acknowledged about seven books (A.D. 115). Polycarp, a disciple of John the apostle, acknowledged 15 books (A.D. 108). Later, Irenaeus mentioned 21 books (A.D. 185). Hippolytus recognized 22 books (A.D. 170-235). The New Testament books receiving the most controversy were Hebrews, James, 2 Peter, 2 John, and 3 John.

The first “canon” was the Muratorian Canon, which was compiled in A.D. 170. The Muratorian Canon included all of the New Testament books except Hebrews, James, and 3 John. In A.D. 363, the Council of Laodicea stated that only the Old Testament (along with the Apocrypha) and the 27 books of the New Testament were to be read in the churches. The Council of Hippo (A.D. 393) and the Council of Carthage (A.D. 397) also affirmed the same 27 books as authoritative.

Do the math. Then look at the Nicene council 321-325 ad.

I have.

Nothing you provided supports your claim that the New Testament documents were written 200 years after the facts they purport to report. I do not care when the documents were taken and canonized. You stated the documents WERE WRITTEN some 200 years after the fact.



(25-06-2014 05:31 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  It took 200 years for people who had never even witnessed these events to write the fable down. If it had happened, someone AT THE TIME would have written about this amazing event.

https://bible.org/article/historical-rel...ty-gospels

This is completely false, the first letter of Paul to the Corinthians, for example, was written sometime around the mid fifties A.D.

Ignatius of Antioch (35-107 A.D.) was a student of the Apostle John. He was martyred, killed by Lions in the arena in Rome. After his arrest and during his transportation to Rome, he wrote seven letters (later, some obviously spurious additional letters were attributed to him – these are ignored here). The letters of Ignatius, written very close to 107 A.D., quote from several New Testament books. Ignatius uses no Israeli geography, as he is from Antioch in Syria. He uses the Septuagint and quotes often from the Old Testament, including the apocrypha. Below are some New Testament quotations of Ignatius. For each letter, the chapter is given, followed by the New Testament reference. This is not at all an exhaustive list, just representative of books Ignatius uses.

Letter of Ignatius to the Ephesians

2 – John 8:29
3 – John 17:11-12
5 – James 4:6
6 – names Onesimus, as in Philemon
6 – John 1:14
7 - 1 Tim 4:10
8 – 1 Pet 2:9
9 – Matt 5:2, 2 Tim 2:24-25, Luke 23:34
11 – Rom 2:4
12 – Matt 23:35, Acts 9:15
13 – Eph 6:16, 6:12
14 – Luke 10:27, Matt 12:33
15 – 1 Cor 4:20, Rom 10:10, 2 Cor 8:18
16 – 2 Cor 6:14-16
18 – 1 Cor 1:20
Letter of Ignatius to the Magnesians

3 – 1 Tim 4:12
4 – Luke 6:46
8 – 2 Cor 5:17, mentions Judaizers
9 – 2 Thess 3:10, Phil 3:18-19, 2 Tim 3:4
10 – Acts 11:26
Letter of Ignatius to the Trallians

9 – Heb 10:12-13
11 – warns of "Nicolaitanes"
Letter of Ignatius to the Romans

2 – 2 Cor 4:18
7 – Gal 2:20
Letter of Ignatius to the Philadelphians

2 – 2 Tim 3:6
6 – “dragon Nicolaitanes"
Letter of Ignatius to the Smyrnans


As can be seen, we have numerous references of New Testament writings from a man who died in 107 A.D. This means that he referenced these writings some time prior to his death which means that these documents were already in existence BEFORE 107 A.D.

So I have no idea why you keep throwing out the number 200 for.

(25-06-2014 05:31 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  First saying a man named jesus was walking on water, rising from the dead, etc is not a historical account when the only mention of these magical stories were penned by believers many years after the event, while the deafening silence of any contemporary writers and recorders of history fail to mention these "events".

Why are the gospels not historical accounts?


(25-06-2014 05:31 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  So yes, eyewitness at the time accounts by non biased, neutral sources would be evidence worth considering, sadly it doesn't exist. When you make extraordinary, supernatural claims, it requires evidence beyond three hundred years later someone writes down a popular myth as fact.

What is this 300 years you refer to? First it was 200 now it is 300. Are you even attempting to be serious?

(25-06-2014 05:31 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  False logic. You see, let's take oh I don't know...george washington for example. I have never met george washington, how do I know he existed? Unlike jesus where No one has the slightest physical evidence to support a historical Jesus; no artifacts, dwelling, works of carpentry, or self-written manuscripts. All claims about Jesus derive from writings of other people.

So?



(25-06-2014 05:31 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  There occurs no contemporary Roman record that shows Pontius Pilate executing a man named Jesus.

Tacitus one of the greatest Roman historians mentions this so you are wrong again man. Wow!


(25-06-2014 05:31 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Devastating to historians, there occurs not a single contemporary writing that mentions Jesus. All documents about Jesus came well after the life of the alleged Jesus from either: unknown authors, people who had never met an earthly Jesus, or from fraudulent, mythical or allegorical writings. All sources about Jesus derive from hearsay accounts...there IS evidence of george washington, dwelling, writings, articles of clothing...get the point?

You need to do some research bro. Really. http://thedevineevidence.com/jesus_history.html

(25-06-2014 05:31 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  You imply, “my belief is based on very strong and credible direct testimony from reliable eyewitnesses” .... mmm, wait, no actually it's not. What you mean to say is My belief is based on the copies of the translations of the copies of the translations of the copies of the oral retelling of the oral retelling of the oral retelling of the oral retelling of the oral retelling of a tale that may or may not have been originally told by apostles who may or may not actually have ever existed and may or may not have witnessed the events and may or may not have told them accurately"

Or my belief could be based on the evidence for the reliability of the gospels.
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02-07-2014, 05:27 PM (This post was last modified: 02-07-2014 05:32 PM by goodwithoutgod.)
RE: goodwithoutgod and Jeremy Walker. Round table one on one
Well darn, I was going to light jeremy on fire with my reply tomorrow but alas, he is finally banned, apparently for creating additional accounts....lame.

So by default...

[Image: im5utv.jpg]

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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02-07-2014, 05:42 PM
RE: goodwithoutgod and Jeremy Walker. Round table one on one
(02-07-2014 05:27 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Well darn, I was going to light jeremy on fire with my reply tomorrow but alas, he is finally banned, apparently for creating additional accounts....lame.

So by default...

[Image: im5utv.jpg]

I guess I'll take him off my buddy list now. Sad
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02-07-2014, 08:35 PM
RE: goodwithoutgod and Jeremy Walker. Round table one on one
*wipes tear* Weeping

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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03-07-2014, 02:23 PM
RE: goodwithoutgod and Jeremy Walker. Round table one on one
(02-07-2014 08:35 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  *wipes tear* Weeping

Hug I feel for you. That would have been fun.

"Newton's third law: The only way humans have ever figured out of getting somewhere is to leave something behind." - TARS, Interstellar
"Newtons drittes Gesetz: Der einzige Weg wie Menschen irgendwo hin kommen, ist der dass sie etwas zurücklassen." - TARS, Interstellar
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03-07-2014, 03:01 PM
RE: goodwithoutgod and Jeremy Walker. Round table one on one
(02-07-2014 08:35 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  *wipes tear* Weeping

There, there Goodsy ... Shy no doubt you'll find someone else who's ass you can mop the floor with... gullible theists seem to be everywhere these days. Angel

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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