goodwithoutgod and Jeremy Walker. Round table one on one
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03-07-2014, 03:11 PM
RE: goodwithoutgod and Jeremy Walker. Round table one on one
(03-07-2014 03:01 PM)kim Wrote:  
(02-07-2014 08:35 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  *wipes tear* Weeping

There, there Goodsy ... Shy no doubt you'll find someone else who's ass you can mop the floor with... gullible theists seem to be everywhere these days. Angel

Yes

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next! Drooling

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03-07-2014, 07:26 PM
RE: goodwithoutgod and Jeremy Walker. Round table one on one
I would like to know what gwog has to say to the ASSertions by Germey that Ignatius of Antioch was quoting the texts Germey says he was quoting. I see nothing of the sort. The fact that similar phrases in the texts "may" indicate, (and it's only "may" as the entire body of Ignatius' *supposed* letters may have been forged), the same phrases were circulating. It in NO WAY means that established works were already codified, and he certainly does not reference chapters and verses :
http://silouanthompson.net/library/early...trallians/
The tension with the Jews (if it's real) is interesting in that one.

What an amazing liar, this Wanker dude was. All he could do when backed into a corner, was ask inane disingenuous questions. The very definition of intellectually dishonest. Was his Jebus not good enough to him, that he HAD to resort to dishonesty ? Oh well. Maybe he can get "elevated" for his lies over at his Elevation Church.

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03-07-2014, 08:04 PM
RE: goodwithoutgod and Jeremy Walker. Round table one on one
(03-07-2014 07:26 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  I would like to know what gwog has to say to the ASSertions by Germey that Ignatius of Antioch was quoting the texts Germey says he was quoting. I see nothing of the sort. The fact that similar phrases in the texts "may" indicate, (and it's only "may" as the entire body of Ignatius' *supposed* letters may have been forged), the same phrases were circulating. It in NO WAY means that established works were already codified, and he certainly does not reference chapters and verses :
http://silouanthompson.net/library/early...trallians/
The tension with the Jews (if it's real) is interesting in that one.

What an amazing liar, this Wanker dude was. All he could do when backed into a corner, was ask inane disingenuous questions. The very definition of intellectually dishonest. Was his Jebus not good enough to him, that he HAD to resort to dishonesty ? Oh well. Maybe he can get "elevated" for his lies over at his Elevation Church.

yeah he was an......interesting character. I dropped a bomb full of facts on him, he sidesteps and goes off on a trail to nowhere. Unsure

To me, ignatius didn't witness anything because he was born about the time jesus died, so his reiteration of popular myths and fairy tales is irrelevant.

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.” - Christopher Hitchens

"You know the difference between a cult and a religion? In a cult, the guy at the top knows it is BS, and in a religion that guy is dead". Dusty.
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03-07-2014, 08:16 PM
RE: goodwithoutgod and Jeremy Walker. Round table one on one
(03-07-2014 03:11 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  
(03-07-2014 03:01 PM)kim Wrote:  There, there Goodsy ... Shy no doubt you'll find someone else who's ass you can mop the floor with... gullible theists seem to be everywhere these days. Angel

Yes

[Image: vn0aih.jpg]

next! Drooling

There's a fresh Buddhist roaming the boards if you'd like some light sparring to warm up with. Big Grin

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03-07-2014, 10:35 PM
RE: goodwithoutgod and Jeremy Walker. Round table one on one
(03-07-2014 08:16 PM)pablo628 Wrote:  
(03-07-2014 03:11 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Yes

[Image: vn0aih.jpg]

next! Drooling

There's a fresh Buddhist roaming the boards if you'd like some light sparring to warm up with. Big Grin

That's no Buddhist. Facepalm

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04-07-2014, 05:38 AM (This post was last modified: 04-07-2014 05:44 AM by John.)
RE: goodwithoutgod and Jeremy Walker. Round table one on one
Just a quick take on these "quotes". As for most everything presented by Jeremy, this list is copy pasta from another apologetics source.

In the case of Ignatius, his letters exist in three versions, commonly called the short, medium and long recensions. The long recension is universally considered to be a revision of the medium recension, the best candidate for anything authentic. The revision probably took place at the end of the 4th century, as even the Catholic Encyclopaedia readily states. With that in mind, it turns out that all these "quotes" are from the long recension and, thus, centuries apart from the time when Ignatius was writing, if he ever even was writing.


Letter of Ignatius to the Ephesians

3 – John 8:29 Long recension
4 – John 17:11-12 Long recension
5 – James 4:6 Long recension, though also partialy in the medium recension, but it's a quote from the OT in any case (Prov. 3:34).
6 – names Onesimus, as in Philemon Even if it's the same guy, so what? Not a quotation.
7 – John 1:14 Long recension
8 - 1 Tim 4:10 Long recension
9 – 1 Pet 2:9 Long recension
10 – Matt 5:5, 2 Tim 2:24-25, Luke 23:34 Long recension
11 – Rom 2:4 Long recension
12 – Matt 23:35, Acts 9:15 Long recension
13 – Eph 6:16, 6:12 Long recension
14 – Luke 10:27, Matt 12:33 Long recension
15 – 1 Cor 4:20, Rom 10:10, 2 Cor 8:18 Long recension
16 – 2 Cor 6:14-16 Long recension
18 – 1 Cor 1:20 Kinda, the 'quote' is partial and short (4 words).

Letter of Ignatius to the Magnesians

3 – 1 Tim 4:12 Long recension
4 – Luke 6:46 Long recension
8 – 2 Cor 5:17, mentions Judaizers Long recension
9 – 2 Thess 3:10, Phil 3:18-19, 2 Tim 3:4 Long recension
10 – Acts 11:26 Long recension

Letter of Ignatius to the Trallians

9 – Heb 10:12-13 Long recension
11 – warns of "Nicolaitanes" Long recension. Not a quotation.

Letter of Ignatius to the Romans

3 – 2 Cor 4:18 Long recension, though curiously this translation also includes it in the medium recension, but in this greek version the quote is lacking.
7 – Gal 2:20 Long recension

Letter of Ignatius to the Philadelphians

2 – 2 Tim 3:6 Nowhere to be found.
6 – “dragon Nicolaitanes" Long recension. Not a quotation.


(01-07-2014 06:31 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  As can be seen, we have numerous references of New Testament writings from a man who died in 107 A.D.

On second count we have zero references of the NT from a man who died in 107 AD, that is, if this man died in 107 AD, and if he ever even existed.

Back to the drawing board.

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04-07-2014, 05:50 AM (This post was last modified: 04-07-2014 05:58 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: goodwithoutgod and Jeremy Walker. Round table one on one
(04-07-2014 05:38 AM)John Wrote:  Just a quick take on these "quotes". As for most everything presented by Jeremy, this list is copy pasta from another apologetics source.

In the case of Ignatius, his letters exist in three versions, commonly called the short, medium and long recensions. The long recension is universally considered to be a revision of the medium recension, the best candidate for anything authentic. The revision probably took place at the end of the 4th century, as even the Catholic Encyclopaedia readily states. With that in mind, it turns out that all these "quotes" are from the long recension and, thus, centuries apart from the time when Ignatius was writing, if he ever even was writing.


Letter of Ignatius to the Ephesians

3 – John 8:29 Long recension
4 – John 17:11-12 Long recension
5 – James 4:6 Long recension, though also partialy in the medium recension, but it's a quote from the OT in any case (Prov. 3:34).
6 – names Onesimus, as in Philemon Even if it's the same guy, so what? Not a quotation.
7 – John 1:14 Long recension
8 - 1 Tim 4:10 Long recension
9 – 1 Pet 2:9 Long recension
10 – Matt 5:5, 2 Tim 2:24-25, Luke 23:34 Long recension
11 – Rom 2:4 Long recension
12 – Matt 23:35, Acts 9:15 Long recension
13 – Eph 6:16, 6:12 Long recension
14 – Luke 10:27, Matt 12:33 Long recension
15 – 1 Cor 4:20, Rom 10:10, 2 Cor 8:18 Long recension
16 – 2 Cor 6:14-16 Long recension
18 – 1 Cor 1:20 Kinda, the 'quote' is partial and short (4 words).

Letter of Ignatius to the Magnesians

3 – 1 Tim 4:12 Long recension
4 – Luke 6:46 Long recension
8 – 2 Cor 5:17, mentions Judaizers Long recension
9 – 2 Thess 3:10, Phil 3:18-19, 2 Tim 3:4 Long recension
10 – Acts 11:26 Long recension

Letter of Ignatius to the Trallians

9 – Heb 10:12-13 Long recension
11 – warns of "Nicolaitanes" Long recension. Not a quotation.

Letter of Ignatius to the Romans

3 – 2 Cor 4:18 Long recension, though curiously this translation also includes it in the medium recension, but in this greek version the quote is lacking.
7 – Gal 2:20 Long recension

Letter of Ignatius to the Philadelphians

2 – 2 Tim 3:6 Nowhere to be found.
6 – “dragon Nicolaitanes" Long recension. Not a quotation.


(01-07-2014 06:31 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  As can be seen, we have numerous references of New Testament writings from a man who died in 107 A.D.

On second count we have zero references of the NT from a man who died in 107 AD, that is, if this man died in 107 AD, and if he ever even existed.

Back to the drawing board.

Exactly , but really I call bullshit on the ENTIRE thing.
http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/l...ecnum=3836
There is NOT ONE reference to any chapter and verse, (of supposedly extant texts), but most important, they clearly reflect a much much later, more fully developed theology. There is NO WAY someone writing around the end of the First Century wrote that shit. Not a chance.

From the site John referenced above : "Obviously, if a writing quotes from a book in the New Testament, that gives evidence that the New Testament book was written prior to the writing that quotes from it."

That is absolutely false. There is no reason it could not be the other way around, OR both could be (and we know DID) quote a third source.
There are many examples. http://www.truthbeknown.com/mithra.htm

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein Certified Ancient Astronaut Theorist and Levitating Yogi, CAAT-LY.
Assistant Manager, Vice Detection, Whoville : Jebus no likey that which doth tickle thee unto thy nether regions.

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04-07-2014, 06:24 AM
RE: goodwithoutgod and Jeremy Walker. Round table one on one
(04-07-2014 05:50 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(04-07-2014 05:38 AM)John Wrote:  Just a quick take on these "quotes". As for most everything presented by Jeremy, this list is copy pasta from another apologetics source.

In the case of Ignatius, his letters exist in three versions, commonly called the short, medium and long recensions. The long recension is universally considered to be a revision of the medium recension, the best candidate for anything authentic. The revision probably took place at the end of the 4th century, as even the Catholic Encyclopaedia readily states. With that in mind, it turns out that all these "quotes" are from the long recension and, thus, centuries apart from the time when Ignatius was writing, if he ever even was writing.


Letter of Ignatius to the Ephesians

3 – John 8:29 Long recension
4 – John 17:11-12 Long recension
5 – James 4:6 Long recension, though also partialy in the medium recension, but it's a quote from the OT in any case (Prov. 3:34).
6 – names Onesimus, as in Philemon Even if it's the same guy, so what? Not a quotation.
7 – John 1:14 Long recension
8 - 1 Tim 4:10 Long recension
9 – 1 Pet 2:9 Long recension
10 – Matt 5:5, 2 Tim 2:24-25, Luke 23:34 Long recension
11 – Rom 2:4 Long recension
12 – Matt 23:35, Acts 9:15 Long recension
13 – Eph 6:16, 6:12 Long recension
14 – Luke 10:27, Matt 12:33 Long recension
15 – 1 Cor 4:20, Rom 10:10, 2 Cor 8:18 Long recension
16 – 2 Cor 6:14-16 Long recension
18 – 1 Cor 1:20 Kinda, the 'quote' is partial and short (4 words).

Letter of Ignatius to the Magnesians

3 – 1 Tim 4:12 Long recension
4 – Luke 6:46 Long recension
8 – 2 Cor 5:17, mentions Judaizers Long recension
9 – 2 Thess 3:10, Phil 3:18-19, 2 Tim 3:4 Long recension
10 – Acts 11:26 Long recension

Letter of Ignatius to the Trallians

9 – Heb 10:12-13 Long recension
11 – warns of "Nicolaitanes" Long recension. Not a quotation.

Letter of Ignatius to the Romans

3 – 2 Cor 4:18 Long recension, though curiously this translation also includes it in the medium recension, but in this greek version the quote is lacking.
7 – Gal 2:20 Long recension

Letter of Ignatius to the Philadelphians

2 – 2 Tim 3:6 Nowhere to be found.
6 – “dragon Nicolaitanes" Long recension. Not a quotation.



On second count we have zero references of the NT from a man who died in 107 AD, that is, if this man died in 107 AD, and if he ever even existed.

Back to the drawing board.

Exactly , but really I call bullshit on the ENTIRE thing.
http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/l...ecnum=3836
There is NOT ONE reference to any chapter and verse, (of supposedly extant texts)

You mean you don't think the long recension quotes from the NT? If that's the case, then I have to disagree on that. Not all the quotes on the list are compelling but quite a few are, and there were a bunch of other verses that I recognized from the gospels which the above list didn't include. It's not a matter of chapter and verse (modern inventions), but agreement in wording and, preferably, allusion to the source. Moreover, I don't see a problem with a 4th century revisionist quoting from the NT, quite to the contrary.

(04-07-2014 05:50 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  but most important, they clearly reflect a much much later, more fully developed theology. There is NO WAY someone writing around the end of the First Century wrote that shit. Not a chance.

I fully agree.

(04-07-2014 05:50 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  From the site John referenced above : "Obviously, if a writing quotes from a book in the New Testament, that gives evidence that the New Testament book was written prior to the writing that quotes from it."

That is absolutely false. There is no reason it could not be the other way around, OR both could be (and we know DID) quote a third source.
There are many examples. http://www.truthbeknown.com/mithra.htm


Just to be clear, I don't agree with this source that Jeremy used. And yes, I agree with you that the case is not as simple as the site states, i.e. 'quotation' in the form of similar wording is only correlation, not causation; additional support is needed for the latter, e.g. allusion to the source, systematic one way tampering, evidence for relative chronology etc.

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04-07-2014, 09:23 AM
RE: goodwithoutgod and Jeremy Walker. Round table one on one
Closing the thread as Jeremy Walker is no longer welcome in this establishment

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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