"healed by the holy spirit" argument
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13-10-2012, 06:09 PM
"healed by the holy spirit" argument
Recently I was talking to my brother (who is from a protestant church) and somehow we ended up talking about religions.

He actually made me a lot of questions (maybe more due to that he thinks Im still catholic, he still dont know Im an atheist) and from time to time I responded in a way that I got him thinking and change topic.

I evaded some questions to avoid turning the conversation into a war, but there was something I didnt know "how is that possible?". The thing is, he said that what makes him believe the most is the people that get healed when prayed for them at church. He even said that he prayed for some persons to be healed (not in the church) and they actually healed and that he saw them healing with his own eyes.

The only thing I could say to that was "have you ever seen a person with no arms getting them back? Why do you think is that?"

Anyway, what do you think? how those people get healed? does it have something to do with "the power of mind", "mind over body" or something like that? Im very curious about that.

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13-10-2012, 06:30 PM
RE: "healed by the holy spirit" argument
(13-10-2012 06:09 PM)SomeOne Wrote:  Recently I was talking to my brother (who is from a protestant church) and somehow we ended up talking about religions.

He actually made me a lot of questions (maybe more due to that he thinks Im still catholic, he still dont know Im an atheist) and from time to time I responded in a way that I got him thinking and change topic.

I evaded some questions to avoid turning the conversation into a war, but there was something I didnt know "how is that possible?". The thing is, he said that what makes him believe the most is the people that get healed when prayed for them at church. He even said that he prayed for some persons to be healed (not in the church) and they actually healed and that he saw them healing with his own eyes.

The only thing I could say to that was "have you ever seen a person with no arms getting them back? Why do you think is that?"

Anyway, what do you think? how those people get healed? does it have something to do with "the power of mind", "mind over body" or something like that? Im very curious about that.

What is it that they're being healed from? As you said, arms growing back would be quite the display. Someone recovering from cancer, or a car accident, is great news but certainly not divine or out of the ordinary.

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
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13-10-2012, 06:39 PM
RE: "healed by the holy spirit" argument
(13-10-2012 06:30 PM)guitar_nut Wrote:  
(13-10-2012 06:09 PM)SomeOne Wrote:  Recently I was talking to my brother (who is from a protestant church) and somehow we ended up talking about religions.

He actually made me a lot of questions (maybe more due to that he thinks Im still catholic, he still dont know Im an atheist) and from time to time I responded in a way that I got him thinking and change topic.

I evaded some questions to avoid turning the conversation into a war, but there was something I didnt know "how is that possible?". The thing is, he said that what makes him believe the most is the people that get healed when prayed for them at church. He even said that he prayed for some persons to be healed (not in the church) and they actually healed and that he saw them healing with his own eyes.

The only thing I could say to that was "have you ever seen a person with no arms getting them back? Why do you think is that?"

Anyway, what do you think? how those people get healed? does it have something to do with "the power of mind", "mind over body" or something like that? Im very curious about that.

What is it that they're being healed from? As you said, arms growing back would be quite the display. Someone recovering from cancer, or a car accident, is great news but certainly not divine or out of the ordinary.

As you mention, the things they were healed from werent so "wow", like problems in the column, the pains that didnt go away and an inflated arm. But it is something, and I believe there has to be an explanation, I was wondering if someone here know something about it, or if there was already a thread for that.

(If I confuse a word or mispell something, forgive me since english is not my native language)

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13-10-2012, 06:47 PM
RE: "healed by the holy spirit" argument
If he's not in Medicine, he really has no overall view about how resilient the body is, and when Medicine expects people to improve, or not. If he's not in Medicine, it's an Argument from Ignorance.
It's also a matter or correlation vs causation". He really doesn't know WHAT the real cause of the recovery was, or if they were going to improve or not. Many, if not most people recover, (for a while anyway).
There are studies that show that people actually get worse, when they are prayed for and there are no peer-reviewed, non-debunked studies that I know of that prove people improve with prayer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Studies_on_...ory_prayer
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health...d=all&_r=0
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/200...133554.htm

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13-10-2012, 06:55 PM
RE: "healed by the holy spirit" argument
Ah, the difference between science and religion is clearly demonstrated here. Both start with "How is this possible?". Religion ends there and claims "Therefore, God.", while science pieces the puzzle together and solves the mystery.

And yes, such a phenomenon can be easily explained with the placebo effect, which indeed have something to do with "the power of the mind". The placebo effect is based on expectations (of being healed) and conditioning. Here's a video which explains nicely the placebo effect




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13-10-2012, 07:21 PM
RE: "healed by the holy spirit" argument
(13-10-2012 06:47 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  If he's not in Medicine, he really has no overall view about how resilient the body is, and when Medicine expects people to improve, or not. If he's not in Medicine, it's an Argument from Ignorance.
It's also a matter or correlation vs causation". He really doesn't know WHAT the real cause of the recovery was, or if they were going to improve or not. Many, if not most people recover, (for a while anyway).
There are studies that show that people actually get worse, when they are prayed for and there are no peer-reviewed, non-debunked studies that I know of that prove people improve with prayer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Studies_on_...ory_prayer
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health...d=all&_r=0
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/200...133554.htm

interesting readings, but thos studies are basicly for people that are being treated, I dont think he's going to stop believing that he saw an arm actually getting smaller right after he prayed because of those articles...

(13-10-2012 06:55 PM)robotworld Wrote:  Ah, the difference between science and religion is clearly demonstrated here. Both start with "How is this possible?". Religion ends there and claims "Therefore, God.", while science pieces the puzzle together and solves the mystery.

And yes, such a phenomenon can be easily explained with the placebo effect, which indeed have something to do with "the power of the mind". The placebo effect is based on expectations (of being healed) and conditioning. Here's a video which explains nicely the placebo effect

Interesting! lets see if I get an argument based on that and the articles that BuckyBall posted

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14-10-2012, 12:56 AM
RE: "healed by the holy spirit" argument
Anything that can detour the host's mental involvement from their physical ailments will convince anyone surrounding them that they are "healed." When a child slips and scrapes his/her knee and begins crying, and a parent promises them ice cream to refrain complete focus on the wound is not any different.

Leviticus does not justify stupidity, but it is more than enough to define corruption of the human mind.

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14-10-2012, 01:21 AM
RE: "healed by the holy spirit" argument
the doctor.

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14-10-2012, 01:27 AM
RE: "healed by the holy spirit" argument
I'm going to find 10 people who all have the same degree and stage of cancer. I'm going to pray to 10 gods, a different god for each person, for them to get better. Following your brother's logic, is the survival and recovery from cancer proof of whichever god I prayed to for them's existence? If patient 3, 7, and 9 all completely recovered, does that mean that all 3 gods exist and answer prayers? Well that's interesting because I prayed to the following things for each patient:

Patient 3: Peter Pan
Patient 7: Rodney Dangerfield
Patient 9: A piece of toast I found behind the sofa

We should alert the media and start worshiping these deities at once!

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14-10-2012, 02:04 AM
RE: "healed by the holy spirit" argument
(13-10-2012 06:09 PM)SomeOne Wrote:  The only thing I could say to that was "have you ever seen a person with no arms getting them back? Why do you think is that?"

Gotta be careful with this, actually. Through my regular debates with creationists; I've learned that they'll resort to absolutely anything they think will support their argument. I used to think the "healed amputee" argument was bullet-proof - nobody's ever legitimately regrown a severed limb - but I pulled it on a christian one day and they threw it back in my face. "Haven't regrown a limb?!" they exclaimed, "Then what do you call this?!". They directed me to the story of a boy who allegedly regrew a severed limb due to divine intervention (sorry guys, the source absolutely escapes me at the moment; but I'll dig to find it).

Upon inspection, I found that the story was reported by a man who had close ties with the church to begin with, so it was obviously a fabricated story with an agenda behind it; but as anyone who deals with these people knows, you can't get them to realize that. If there's an official record of something divine - even if it's completely fabricated - they take it to be absolute proof that their argument holds validity.

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