"healed by the holy spirit" argument
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14-10-2012, 03:16 AM
RE: "healed by the holy spirit" argument
(14-10-2012 02:04 AM)Misanthropik Wrote:  
(13-10-2012 06:09 PM)SomeOne Wrote:  The only thing I could say to that was "have you ever seen a person with no arms getting them back? Why do you think is that?"

Gotta be careful with this, actually. Through my regular debates with creationists; I've learned that they'll resort to absolutely anything they think will support their argument. I used to think the "healed amputee" argument was bullet-proof - nobody's ever legitimately regrown a severed limb - but I pulled it on a christian one day and they threw it back in my face. "Haven't regrown a limb?!" they exclaimed, "Then what do you call this?!". They directed me to the story of a boy who allegedly regrew a severed limb due to divine intervention (sorry guys, the source absolutely escapes me at the moment; but I'll dig to find it).

Upon inspection, I found that the story was reported by a man who had close ties with the church to begin with, so it was obviously a fabricated story with an agenda behind it; but as anyone who deals with these people knows, you can't get them to realize that. If there's an official record of something divine - even if it's completely fabricated - they take it to be absolute proof that their argument holds validity.

I've never heard of him healing.... DECAPITATION!Wink

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14-10-2012, 03:29 AM (This post was last modified: 14-10-2012 03:59 AM by fstratzero.)
RE: "healed by the holy spirit" argument
I hope they weren't using this argument..

skeptoid.com/episodes/4247




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14-10-2012, 09:08 AM
RE: "healed by the holy spirit" argument
(14-10-2012 02:04 AM)Misanthropik Wrote:  
(13-10-2012 06:09 PM)SomeOne Wrote:  The only thing I could say to that was "have you ever seen a person with no arms getting them back? Why do you think is that?"

Gotta be careful with this, actually. Through my regular debates with creationists; I've learned that they'll resort to absolutely anything they think will support their argument. I used to think the "healed amputee" argument was bullet-proof - nobody's ever legitimately regrown a severed limb - but I pulled it on a christian one day and they threw it back in my face. "Haven't regrown a limb?!" they exclaimed, "Then what do you call this?!". They directed me to the story of a boy who allegedly regrew a severed limb due to divine intervention (sorry guys, the source absolutely escapes me at the moment; but I'll dig to find it).

Upon inspection, I found that the story was reported by a man who had close ties with the church to begin with, so it was obviously a fabricated story with an agenda behind it; but as anyone who deals with these people knows, you can't get them to realize that. If there's an official record of something divine - even if it's completely fabricated - they take it to be absolute proof that their argument holds validity.

If he ever says something like that I would just ask for the whole story and who verified it. Still, I hope that question to get him "thinking" about it enough to investigate and criticize properly. In his church there are lots of people getting "healed" every week and in years he hasnt seen a single amputee recover their missing parts? is their "faith" not enough? that I hope he is thinking now.

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15-10-2012, 02:27 AM
RE: "healed by the holy spirit" argument
I could cut myself with something sharp, say a prayer and be healed. It might take a week, but it would heal up. That is not god, that is just my body doing what it is supposed to do. Cancer I believe can be cured by removing the cause if found in time. Certain fake sugars we eat all the time without knowing it have been proven to cause cancer. I am sure that if someone figured that out in time, they might be able to fix it just by a change in diet. I think it is safe to say that the regrowth of a missing limb is required to prove that "god did it". Then of course if that claim does come up, "pics or it didn't happen".
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15-10-2012, 03:01 AM
RE: "healed by the holy spirit" argument
This reminds me of the passage I read in Dawkins book "The God Delusion".

"Prayers were delivered by the congregation of three churches, one in Minnesota, one in Massachusetts, and one inf Missouri, all distant from the three hospitals. The praying individuals, as explained, were given onlyt he first name and initial letter of the surname of each patient for whom they were to pray. It is good experimental practice to standardize as far as possible and they were all, accordingly, told to include in their prayers the phrase "for a successful surgery with a quick, healthy recovery and no complications".

If I recall correctly some patients knew they were being prayed for. The prayers had absolutely no effect on the patients except for a few that KNEW they were being prayed for actually developed complications.

That prayer is a tricky thing!

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15-10-2012, 05:28 AM
RE: "healed by the holy spirit" argument
I will say this: Back when I was still a devout christian; my grandfather was diagnosed with Cancer. The diagnosis began a rapid descent into "Tumortown" (R.I.P. Hitchens) which lasted about a year. There was a period of time near the end when he actually seemed to recover; his strength came back, and he was becoming more active. Apparently that's a common trickery of Cancer, though, and he soon began to decline again. At this point, we (my family) were making daily trips to my grandparents' house and staying the night so that we could take care of them as my grandfather slipped into untold physical weakness and eventually into dementia.

One night, he had reached a point where he was what can only be described as a "zombie". Yellow skin, empty eyes, and mouth hanging open as he lay on his in-home hospital bed staring into nowhere. Again, I was still a devout christian, and as I lay on the air-matress in the guest room that night; I prayed to God to have a little bit of mercy on the old man and just take his life. It had been drawn-out for a year or so, and it was time to put him out of his misery (assuming he was capable of being mentally aware of any "misery" at all). So I begged and pleaded for God to simply kill him.

No more than 6 hours later; the in-home nurse woke my dad - who subsequently woke me - to inform us that my grandfather was dead. It was on that day that I decided, definitively, that God was real and was capable of intervening in our daily lives.

Looking back on it, I now realize that the guy was a fucking zombie. He was going to die that night anyway, whether I prayed for it or not. What's more, everyone knew it; which is why my grandmother layed sobbing in bed with him and why my parents made sure that my sister and I said our final goodbyes. At the time, I didn't even consider any of those factors to be significant. I was completely hung-up on the entirely incidental correlation between the subject of my prayers and the passing of my grandfather. Being a faith-head, that was all that mattered. I prayed and it happened - so to my 15-year-old Christian mind, I had proof-positive of God's mercy in times of distress.

It's obvious to any rational individual that prayer does nothing to help heal the sick or grant mercy to those in need of it; but to someone who's looking for God's answer to a sincere prayer, they're going to find it. Whether it's my grandfather dying on the same night as my prayer, or a Cancer patient's agonizingly slow but ultimately sucessful recovery 2 years after a whole prayer group decided to make a request to God on his/her behalf. It's funny how when someone dies of their ailment, it's "God's mercy". But, if someone recovers after a gruelling battle that lasts months or even years, it's also "God's mercy".

No matter the means, the end will always be attributed to "God's mercy". What an ingenius and reprehensible little construct these people have built.

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15-10-2012, 08:17 AM
RE: "healed by the holy spirit" argument
(15-10-2012 05:28 AM)Misanthropik Wrote:  I will say this: Back when I was still a devout christian; my grandfather was diagnosed with Cancer. The diagnosis began a rapid descent into "Tumortown" (R.I.P. Hitchens) which lasted about a year. There was a period of time near the end when he actually seemed to recover; his strength came back, and he was becoming more active. Apparently that's a common trickery of Cancer, though, and he soon began to decline again. At this point, we (my family) were making daily trips to my grandparents' house and staying the night so that we could take care of them as my grandfather slipped into untold physical weakness and eventually into dementia.

One night, he had reached a point where he was what can only be described as a "zombie". Yellow skin, empty eyes, and mouth hanging open as he lay on his in-home hospital bed staring into nowhere. Again, I was still a devout christian, and as I lay on the air-matress in the guest room that night; I prayed to God to have a little bit of mercy on the old man and just take his life. It had been drawn-out for a year or so, and it was time to put him out of his misery (assuming he was capable of being mentally aware of any "misery" at all). So I begged and pleaded for God to simply kill him.

No more than 6 hours later; the in-home nurse woke my dad - who subsequently woke me - to inform us that my grandfather was dead. It was on that day that I decided, definitively, that God was real and was capable of intervening in our daily lives.

Looking back on it, I now realize that the guy was a fucking zombie. He was going to die that night anyway, whether I prayed for it or not. What's more, everyone knew it; which is why my grandmother layed sobbing in bed with him and why my parents made sure that my sister and I said our final goodbyes. At the time, I didn't even consider any of those factors to be significant. I was completely hung-up on the entirely incidental correlation between the subject of my prayers and the passing of my grandfather. Being a faith-head, that was all that mattered. I prayed and it happened - so to my 15-year-old Christian mind, I had proof-positive of God's mercy in times of distress.

It's obvious to any rational individual that prayer does nothing to help heal the sick or grant mercy to those in need of it; but to someone who's looking for God's answer to a sincere prayer, they're going to find it. Whether it's my grandfather dying on the same night as my prayer, or a Cancer patient's agonizingly slow but ultimately sucessful recovery 2 years after a whole prayer group decided to make a request to God on his/her behalf. It's funny how when someone dies of their ailment, it's "God's mercy". But, if someone recovers after a gruelling battle that lasts months or even years, it's also "God's mercy".

No matter the means, the end will always be attributed to "God's mercy". What an ingenius and reprehensible little construct these people have built.

Sadly, that kind of story is very common.

Its like you said, the mind "sees what it want to see"

if your faith can move mountains it should be able to withstand criticism
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15-10-2012, 09:18 AM
RE: "healed by the holy spirit" argument
(13-10-2012 06:09 PM)SomeOne Wrote:  Recently I was talking to my brother (who is from a protestant church) and somehow we ended up talking about religions.

He actually made me a lot of questions (maybe more due to that he thinks Im still catholic, he still dont know Im an atheist) and from time to time I responded in a way that I got him thinking and change topic.

I evaded some questions to avoid turning the conversation into a war, but there was something I didnt know "how is that possible?". The thing is, he said that what makes him believe the most is the people that get healed when prayed for them at church. He even said that he prayed for some persons to be healed (not in the church) and they actually healed and that he saw them healing with his own eyes.

The only thing I could say to that was "have you ever seen a person with no arms getting them back? Why do you think is that?"

Anyway, what do you think? how those people get healed? does it have something to do with "the power of mind", "mind over body" or something like that? Im very curious about that.
Not knowing much about the specifics of who got healed from what illnesses, I'm going to guess it's a matter of selective attention. Religious people do this with all sorts of things. They pray about 20 things and, when 1 comes true, they think "Praise God, my prayer was answered" meanwhile forgetting all about the 19 that didn't come true. And some of those 19 may even have gone the opposite direction of what was prayed for. If they even notice, those get dismissed with "God knows better than me what's best." Anyway, in the case of healed people, the ones healed were going to get better anyway either naturally or with medical treatment, but God gets the credit, but not the blame for those that didn't happen to get better.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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