how to use the bible agaisnt itself
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16-02-2016, 10:14 AM
RE: how to use the bible agaisnt itself
(16-02-2016 10:07 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(16-02-2016 10:00 AM)mgoering Wrote:  Excuse my ignorance, Aliza, but I'm curious to know if Jews are still waiting for the real Messiah to come. And, if so, will there be irrefutable evidence that that Messiah has a direct blood lineage from David?

Yes, we're still waiting on the messiah.

There are people today who know if they're from the House of David. The late Lubavitcher Rebbe was known to be from this house. For those who do not know, their DNA can be compared against those who do know. This is also how we identify Kohains. Those who have the tradition in their families of being Davidic, Levite, or Kohain also have a genetic link that displays a connection in the y-chromosome.

The DNA proves only that one is related to those who claim to be of the lineage of the House of David. Consider

How solid are those claims?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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16-02-2016, 10:43 AM
RE: how to use the bible agaisnt itself
(16-02-2016 10:07 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(16-02-2016 10:00 AM)mgoering Wrote:  Excuse my ignorance, Aliza, but I'm curious to know if Jews are still waiting for the real Messiah to come. And, if so, will there be irrefutable evidence that that Messiah has a direct blood lineage from David?

Yes, we're still waiting on the messiah.

There are people today who know if they're from the House of David. The late Lubavitcher Rebbe was known to be from this house. For those who do not know, their DNA can be compared against those who do know. This is also how we identify Kohains. Those who have the tradition in their families of being Davidic, Levite, or Kohain also have a genetic link that displays a connection in the y-chromosome.

Thank you Aliza. This is all new to me. I have a couple of follow up question. Why do the Jewish people reject Jesus as the true Messiah? I found this website that offers some explanations. Would you agree with them?

http://www.jewsnews.co.il/2014/01/26/7-r...every-jew/


And a question to the atheists on this site. I think all believers who visit this site should be treated with respect. Of course, that includes Aliza. But I don't understand the different levels of respect/disrespect. From the very little I've learned about Judaism, I find it just as fantastical as Christianity and Mormonism. Yet it seems to get a pass. What's up with that?

"Why hast thou forsaken me, o deity whose existence I doubt..." - Dr. Sheldon Cooper
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16-02-2016, 11:06 AM (This post was last modified: 16-02-2016 11:09 AM by Unbeliever.)
RE: how to use the bible agaisnt itself
(16-02-2016 10:43 AM)mgoering Wrote:  And a question to the atheists on this site. I think all believers who visit this site should be treated with respect. Of course, that includes Aliza. But I don't understand the different levels of respect/disrespect. From the very little I've learned about Judaism, I find it just as fantastical as Christianity and Mormonism. Yet it seems to get a pass. What's up with that?

Short answer: myopia.

Long answer: most posters on this forum are American. America is predominately Christian, in various denominations, which means that most atheists in the area are dealing with Christian antagonism more than anything else. America is also, along with the rest of the western world, currently undergoing a sort of "Red Scare" scenario with regards to Islam. Whether or not this is justified is beside the point; the fact remains that most posters on this forum come from a society where these two religions are the ones that are the ones they will likely have to deal with.

Beyond that, most theists who come to this forum and make asshats of themselves are also American - which means most of them are Christian. Aliza is, so far as I am aware, our only Jewish voice, and she conducts herself admirably in comparison, so Judaism tends to benefit from the community's thoughts about her as opposed to, say, The Q Continuum's constant condescending gibberish.

Long story short, the Jews leave us alone, so they tend to be left alone in return. The same goes for Hinduism, Buddhism, and so forth. Posters here simply don't deal with them regularly enough to feel as strongly about them. If posters here were more frequently exposed to them, those religions would get the same treatment.

EDIT: Note that I am merely stating fact here, not saying that I agree with the prevailing attitude towards Christians. Whether or not Q and so forth have earned their caustic treatment here is another matter entirely (I would tend towards a "yes, but I'd prefer that we treated them respectfully anyway, because I am a simple man and moral superiority makes me tingly in all the right places"), but the attitudes towards Christianity itself, and other religions, are mostly just the result of social pressures.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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16-02-2016, 11:27 AM
RE: how to use the bible agaisnt itself
(16-02-2016 11:06 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(16-02-2016 10:43 AM)mgoering Wrote:  And a question to the atheists on this site. I think all believers who visit this site should be treated with respect. Of course, that includes Aliza. But I don't understand the different levels of respect/disrespect. From the very little I've learned about Judaism, I find it just as fantastical as Christianity and Mormonism. Yet it seems to get a pass. What's up with that?

Short answer: myopia.

Long answer: most posters on this forum are American. America is predominately Christian, in various denominations, which means that most atheists in the area are dealing with Christian antagonism more than anything else. America is also, along with the rest of the western world, currently undergoing a sort of "Red Scare" scenario with regards to Islam. Whether or not this is justified is beside the point; the fact remains that most posters on this forum come from a society where these two religions are the ones that are the ones they will likely have to deal with.

Beyond that, most theists who come to this forum and make asshats of themselves are also American - which means most of them are Christian. Aliza is, so far as I am aware, our only Jewish voice, and she conducts herself admirably in comparison, so Judaism tends to benefit from the community's thoughts about her as opposed to, say, The Q Continuum's constant condescending gibberish.

Long story short, the Jews leave us alone, so they tend to be left alone in return. The same goes for Hinduism, Buddhism, and so forth. Posters here simply don't deal with them regularly enough to feel as strongly about them. If posters here were more frequently exposed to them, those religions would get the same treatment.

EDIT: Note that I am merely stating fact here, not saying that I agree with the prevailing attitude towards Christians. Whether or not Q and so forth have earned their caustic treatment here is another matter entirely (I would tend towards a "yes, but I'd prefer that we treated them respectfully anyway, because I am a simple man and moral superiority makes me tingly in all the right places"), but the attitudes towards Christianity itself, and other religions, are mostly just the result of social pressures.

We have had insane and obnoxious people of other religions and they don't get a break.

Aliza is not insane or obnoxious.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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16-02-2016, 11:29 AM
RE: how to use the bible agaisnt itself
(16-02-2016 10:43 AM)mgoering Wrote:  And a question to the atheists on this site. I think all believers who visit this site should be treated with respect.

Nope, nor should all non-believers. If they don't deserve it, why should they get it? Consider

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16-02-2016, 11:54 AM
RE: how to use the bible agaisnt itself
(16-02-2016 11:27 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(16-02-2016 11:06 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  Short answer: myopia.

Long answer: most posters on this forum are American. America is predominately Christian, in various denominations, which means that most atheists in the area are dealing with Christian antagonism more than anything else. America is also, along with the rest of the western world, currently undergoing a sort of "Red Scare" scenario with regards to Islam. Whether or not this is justified is beside the point; the fact remains that most posters on this forum come from a society where these two religions are the ones that are the ones they will likely have to deal with.

Beyond that, most theists who come to this forum and make asshats of themselves are also American - which means most of them are Christian. Aliza is, so far as I am aware, our only Jewish voice, and she conducts herself admirably in comparison, so Judaism tends to benefit from the community's thoughts about her as opposed to, say, The Q Continuum's constant condescending gibberish.

Long story short, the Jews leave us alone, so they tend to be left alone in return. The same goes for Hinduism, Buddhism, and so forth. Posters here simply don't deal with them regularly enough to feel as strongly about them. If posters here were more frequently exposed to them, those religions would get the same treatment.

EDIT: Note that I am merely stating fact here, not saying that I agree with the prevailing attitude towards Christians. Whether or not Q and so forth have earned their caustic treatment here is another matter entirely (I would tend towards a "yes, but I'd prefer that we treated them respectfully anyway, because I am a simple man and moral superiority makes me tingly in all the right places"), but the attitudes towards Christianity itself, and other religions, are mostly just the result of social pressures.

We have had insane and obnoxious people of other religions and they don't get a break.

Aliza is not insane or obnoxious.

Quite. I'm just pointing out why most of the discussions here are Christianity-centered.

We are equal-opportunity mockers. It just happens that most people here worthy of mocking are Christian.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
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16-02-2016, 12:44 PM
RE: how to use the bible agaisnt itself
(16-02-2016 11:54 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(16-02-2016 11:27 AM)Chas Wrote:  We have had insane and obnoxious people of other religions and they don't get a break.

Aliza is not insane or obnoxious.

Quite. I'm just pointing out why most of the discussions here are Christianity-centered.

We are equal-opportunity mockers. It just happens that most people here worthy of mocking are Christian.

And Canadians. ... And Kiwis.

#sigh
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16-02-2016, 12:47 PM
RE: how to use the bible agaisnt itself
(16-02-2016 11:27 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(16-02-2016 11:06 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  Short answer: myopia.

Long answer: most posters on this forum are American. America is predominately Christian, in various denominations, which means that most atheists in the area are dealing with Christian antagonism more than anything else. America is also, along with the rest of the western world, currently undergoing a sort of "Red Scare" scenario with regards to Islam. Whether or not this is justified is beside the point; the fact remains that most posters on this forum come from a society where these two religions are the ones that are the ones they will likely have to deal with.

Beyond that, most theists who come to this forum and make asshats of themselves are also American - which means most of them are Christian. Aliza is, so far as I am aware, our only Jewish voice, and she conducts herself admirably in comparison, so Judaism tends to benefit from the community's thoughts about her as opposed to, say, The Q Continuum's constant condescending gibberish.

Long story short, the Jews leave us alone, so they tend to be left alone in return. The same goes for Hinduism, Buddhism, and so forth. Posters here simply don't deal with them regularly enough to feel as strongly about them. If posters here were more frequently exposed to them, those religions would get the same treatment.

EDIT: Note that I am merely stating fact here, not saying that I agree with the prevailing attitude towards Christians. Whether or not Q and so forth have earned their caustic treatment here is another matter entirely (I would tend towards a "yes, but I'd prefer that we treated them respectfully anyway, because I am a simple man and moral superiority makes me tingly in all the right places"), but the attitudes towards Christianity itself, and other religions, are mostly just the result of social pressures.

We have had insane and obnoxious people of other religions and they don't get a break.

Aliza is not insane or obnoxious.

You're correct. Aliza is not insane or obnoxious. I guess instead of saying "respected" I should have said "scrutinized". I find the notion of waiting for a messiah to come (and the whole idea of a messianic era) just as nonsensical as the idea of Jesus being the messiah, who will come again to judge the living and the dead. But, I don't see the same scrutiny of the former as I do for the latter.

"Why hast thou forsaken me, o deity whose existence I doubt..." - Dr. Sheldon Cooper
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16-02-2016, 12:51 PM
RE: how to use the bible agaisnt itself
(16-02-2016 11:27 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(16-02-2016 11:06 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  Short answer: myopia.

Long answer: most posters on this forum are American. America is predominately Christian, in various denominations, which means that most atheists in the area are dealing with Christian antagonism more than anything else. America is also, along with the rest of the western world, currently undergoing a sort of "Red Scare" scenario with regards to Islam. Whether or not this is justified is beside the point; the fact remains that most posters on this forum come from a society where these two religions are the ones that are the ones they will likely have to deal with.

Beyond that, most theists who come to this forum and make asshats of themselves are also American - which means most of them are Christian. Aliza is, so far as I am aware, our only Jewish voice, and she conducts herself admirably in comparison, so Judaism tends to benefit from the community's thoughts about her as opposed to, say, The Q Continuum's constant condescending gibberish.

Long story short, the Jews leave us alone, so they tend to be left alone in return. The same goes for Hinduism, Buddhism, and so forth. Posters here simply don't deal with them regularly enough to feel as strongly about them. If posters here were more frequently exposed to them, those religions would get the same treatment.

EDIT: Note that I am merely stating fact here, not saying that I agree with the prevailing attitude towards Christians. Whether or not Q and so forth have earned their caustic treatment here is another matter entirely (I would tend towards a "yes, but I'd prefer that we treated them respectfully anyway, because I am a simple man and moral superiority makes me tingly in all the right places"), but the attitudes towards Christianity itself, and other religions, are mostly just the result of social pressures.

We have had insane and obnoxious people of other religions and they don't get a break.

Aliza is not insane or obnoxious.

You're correct. Aliza is not insane or obnoxious. I guess instead of saying "respected" I should have said "scrutinized". I find the notion of waiting for a messiah to come (and the whole idea of a messianic era) just as nonsensical as the idea of Jesus being the messiah, who will come again to judge the living and the dead. But, I don't see that belief being torn to shreds like other beliefs people expound.

"Why hast thou forsaken me, o deity whose existence I doubt..." - Dr. Sheldon Cooper
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16-02-2016, 12:53 PM
RE: how to use the bible agaisnt itself
(16-02-2016 12:47 PM)mgoering Wrote:  
(16-02-2016 11:27 AM)Chas Wrote:  We have had insane and obnoxious people of other religions and they don't get a break.

Aliza is not insane or obnoxious.

You're correct. Aliza is not insane or obnoxious. I guess instead of saying "respected" I should have said "scrutinized". I find the notion of waiting for a messiah to come (and the whole idea of a messianic era) just as nonsensical as the idea of Jesus being the messiah, who will come again to judge the living and the dead. But, I don't see the same scrutiny of the former as I do for the latter.

She has been describing the tenets of Judaism in an objective fashion.
Those tenets have been mocked, but her manner requires no scrutiny - it deserves respect.

Judaism is no less absurd than any other religion and more absurd than some.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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