how to use the bible agaisnt itself
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16-02-2016, 01:26 PM
RE: how to use the bible agaisnt itself
(16-02-2016 12:53 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(16-02-2016 12:47 PM)mgoering Wrote:  You're correct. Aliza is not insane or obnoxious. I guess instead of saying "respected" I should have said "scrutinized". I find the notion of waiting for a messiah to come (and the whole idea of a messianic era) just as nonsensical as the idea of Jesus being the messiah, who will come again to judge the living and the dead. But, I don't see the same scrutiny of the former as I do for the latter.

She has been describing the tenets of Judaism in an objective fashion.
Those tenets have been mocked, but her manner requires no scrutiny - it deserves respect.

Judaism is no less absurd than any other religion and more absurd than some.


Fair enough. I don't want to see Aliza mocked or disrespected. Just wanted to hear a little critique of Judaism ... much like the subtle critique you offered at the end of your post. Smile

I'll have to dig back further in the archives to see a full-out mocking of Judaism.

"Why hast thou forsaken me, o deity whose existence I doubt..." - Dr. Sheldon Cooper
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16-02-2016, 01:29 PM
RE: how to use the bible agaisnt itself
(16-02-2016 12:47 PM)mgoering Wrote:  You're correct. Aliza is not insane or obnoxious. I guess instead of saying "respected" I should have said "scrutinized". I find the notion of waiting for a messiah to come (and the whole idea of a messianic era) just as nonsensical as the idea of Jesus being the messiah, who will come again to judge the living and the dead. But, I don't see the same scrutiny of the former as I do for the latter.

As has already been mentioned, Aliza tends to present the tenets of Judaism as-is, without any particularly strong opinions expressed about how they must be considered as infallible or similar. And, most of the time, it's a passing comment anyway; if there were a thread dedicated to discussing Judaism, it would get analyzed as thoroughly as Christianity does in its many dedicated threads.

It's also worth noting that Alla, one of our most prolific theistic posters, is some variety of Mormon, though most discussions with her don't tend to go anywhere. Even discounting the fact that English is, I believe, her second language, her beliefs are remarkably incoherent, poorly-conveyed, and nonsensical, so attempts to analyze and debunk them don't tend to go anywhere simply because we don't really have any idea what it is she's trying to say.

EDIT: But if you just want the general opinion on Judaism, it's basically the same we have towards the rest of the various religions. It's silly, nonsensical, unsupported, and unnecessary at best, and at worst can lead to dangerous fanaticism. Everything else is fine print.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
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16-02-2016, 01:39 PM
RE: how to use the bible agaisnt itself
(16-02-2016 01:26 PM)mgoering Wrote:  
(16-02-2016 12:53 PM)Chas Wrote:  She has been describing the tenets of Judaism in an objective fashion.
Those tenets have been mocked, but her manner requires no scrutiny - it deserves respect.

Judaism is no less absurd than any other religion and more absurd than some.


Fair enough. I don't want to see Aliza mocked or disrespected. Just wanted to hear a little critique of Judaism ... much like the subtle critique you offered at the end of your post. Smile

I'll have to dig back further in the archives to see a full-out mocking of Judaism.

I'm well-known for my subtle critiques. Yes

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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16-02-2016, 01:43 PM
RE: how to use the bible agaisnt itself
(16-02-2016 01:26 PM)mgoering Wrote:  I'll have to dig back further in the archives to see a full-out mocking of Judaism.

psikeyhackr blamed the Jews for 9/11 in his bizarro thread. .... no wait, that was me.

#sigh
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16-02-2016, 01:51 PM
RE: how to use the bible agaisnt itself
The worst criticism of Judaism that I've seen comes from other theists -- in particular, "traditional Catholics". If you don't believe me, check out the Suscipe Domine or CathInfo forums. Those guys are vicious. And yes, some of them blame the Jews for 9/11 (and "killing Christ", and everything else under the sun).
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16-02-2016, 02:17 PM
RE: how to use the bible agaisnt itself
Another take on this is that Christians and Muslims are proselytizers. They are always trying to convert you, which can get very annoying. Jews and Hindus and Buddhists are pretty low-key in that respect. They believe what they believe, but are mostly happy to let you believe what you believe. They don't feel the need to aggressively convert everyone. So it's pretty easy to be tolerant toward them.
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16-02-2016, 02:48 PM (This post was last modified: 16-02-2016 06:38 PM by The Organic Chemist.)
RE: how to use the bible agaisnt itself
(16-02-2016 10:43 AM)mgoering Wrote:  And a question to the atheists on this site. I think all believers who visit this site should be treated with respect. Of course, that includes Aliza. But I don't understand the different levels of respect/disrespect. From the very little I've learned about Judaism, I find it just as fantastical as Christianity and Mormonism. Yet it seems to get a pass. What's up with that?

My $0.02. I like Jews. Not just because I am 25% myself but because they (in my experience) value knowledge. From what I understand, it is pretty well accepted that the exodus didn't happen. Can you imagine any christian saying that the nativity is bullshit? That is pretty honest IMO. I am pretty sure that many christians would not get into a time machine to verify the Jesus story but I imagine that many Jews would. I respect that. Plus, Jews don't try to convert you, they pretty much want to be left alone. I respect that too.

I also think that her delivery is very respectful. Assholes like Q and COTW basically come out of the gate with "you're all wrong and here's why, and now I am putting my fingers in my ears" nonsense and when that goes bowhere, they just lie.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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16-02-2016, 02:51 PM
RE: how to use the bible agaisnt itself
(16-02-2016 08:48 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(15-02-2016 08:52 AM)Aliza Wrote:  I’m so sorry, Q. I was reviewing this thread and I just noticed this question. Next time PM me if I miss something. Smile

The Jewish expectations for our messiah are the same today as they were +2,000 years ago.

The messiah will be a normal, human, Jewish male from the House of David. He’ll be the biological product of a normal human Jewish mother and a normal, human Jewish father who himself is from a valid line in the House of David. The messiah will be capable of reasoning and effectively negotiating with everyone, and he will uphold Jewish law.

In the Messiah’s era, we will see:
1. A gathering of the Jews back to Israel. (Which implies that the Jews had to first be in diaspora)
2. The rebuilding of Jerusalem. –This will occur on Earth in the physical world. This is not a spiritual representation of heaven. If there is no Temple, then there is no messiah. They go hand-in-hand.
3. Ezekiel’s Temple (the third temple) will be built.
4. World peace will be achieved.
5. All weapons will be turned into farming equipment.
6. All people will recognize that there is a G-d.

These things have either not occurred or have not occurred to completion. We can therefore surmise that the Jewish messiah has not been revealed.

All six of your numbered points are cited in both testaments, yes. Please cite your source that the Messiah will be the child of two human parents. Thank you.

TL/DR: It's really not that long, and it's worth the complete read through.

Of course.

Genesis 3:20 identifies Eve as the mother of all the living. –According to the Torah, ALL humans will descend from Eve. No human will exist that does not descend from Eve. Ergo, the messiah will have a human mother.

I already posted this next one for you a few posts ago, but maybe you missed the nuances here. When I read it, the wording just seems so clear and plain that I can't imagine there being much room for misinterpretation.

2 Samuel 7: 12 When your days are finished and you shall lie with your forefathers, then I will raise up your seed that shall proceed from your body after you, and I will establish his kingdom.

This passage is telling us that the kingdom will be established in David's descendant. It's like the writer of the bible anticipated that one day, a group of people would try to claim that the rightful king is only a stepchild of a descendant of David.

יבכִּי | יִמְלְאוּ יָמֶיךָ וְשָׁכַבְתָּ אֶת אֲבֹתֶיךָ וַהֲקִימֹתִי אֶת זַרְעֲךָ אַחֲרֶיךָ אֲשֶׁר יֵצֵא מִמֵּעֶיךָ וַהֲכִינֹתִי אֶת מַמְלַכְתּוֹ:


The word used here in the Hebrew is "zera". It means physical seed. Only biological children are zeras. If it was referring to a "spiritual child" then the word would have been "ben", but because "zera" was used, we know that the descendent will be of David's literal DNA. You may then try to say that "zera" can mean female descendants. Except that we know who inherited the kingdom. It was Solomon. The kingdom goes down through Solomon..

1 Chronicles 10) And even from the days that I commanded judges over My people Israel; and I vanquished all your enemies. Moreover I tell you that the Lord will build you a house. 11) And it will come to pass when your days are finished to go with your forefathers, then I shall raise up your seed after you, who will be of your sons, and I shall establish his kingdom.

This is where we learn that David now gets his own house. That's why we call it "House of David".

We also learn in Numbers 1 and 2 that houses count males according to their fathers. It goes from father to son. Read it. It matters.

Finally, G-d tells us himself that he's not a man. If he's not a man, then how can he be Solomon's son, as such that he could potentially produce a king? If G-d promised David that Solomon's line would carry on forever, then G-d either lied, or he was mistaken. Which one do Christians think it is?
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16-02-2016, 03:41 PM (This post was last modified: 16-02-2016 04:18 PM by Aliza.)
RE: how to use the bible agaisnt itself
(16-02-2016 10:43 AM)mgoering Wrote:  
(16-02-2016 10:07 AM)Aliza Wrote:  Yes, we're still waiting on the messiah.

There are people today who know if they're from the House of David. The late Lubavitcher Rebbe was known to be from this house. For those who do not know, their DNA can be compared against those who do know. This is also how we identify Kohains. Those who have the tradition in their families of being Davidic, Levite, or Kohain also have a genetic link that displays a connection in the y-chromosome.

Thank you Aliza. This is all new to me. I have a couple of follow up question. Why do the Jewish people reject Jesus as the true Messiah? I found this website that offers some explanations. Would you agree with them?

http://www.jewsnews.co.il/2014/01/26/7-r...every-jew/

I can stand behind that article 100%. I've heard Christians come up with literally hundreds of reasons why they think Jesus was the messiah. They're all based on mistranslations, quotes taken out of context, and lack of understanding the most basic tenets of Judaism.

Edit: "tenets." Thanks, Chas!
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16-02-2016, 03:42 PM
RE: how to use the bible agaisnt itself
(16-02-2016 03:41 PM)Aliza Wrote:  I can stand behind that article 100%. I've heard Christians come up with literally hundreds of reasons why they think Jesus was the messiah. They're all based on mistranslations, quotes taken out of context, and lack of understanding the most basic tenants of Judaism.

tenets Drinking Beverage

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