how to use the bible agaisnt itself
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16-02-2016, 04:16 PM
RE: how to use the bible agaisnt itself
(16-02-2016 10:14 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(16-02-2016 10:07 AM)Aliza Wrote:  Yes, we're still waiting on the messiah.

There are people today who know if they're from the House of David. The late Lubavitcher Rebbe was known to be from this house. For those who do not know, their DNA can be compared against those who do know. This is also how we identify Kohains. Those who have the tradition in their families of being Davidic, Levite, or Kohain also have a genetic link that displays a connection in the y-chromosome.

The DNA proves only that one is related to those who claim to be of the lineage of the House of David. Consider

How solid are those claims?

If people who have been told by their parents and grandparents that they have this special heritage also happen to share a DNA link at a much higher rate than the general Jewish population, then I would call the claims pretty good. I'm a bit too early in my own science education to really sink my teeth into this, but maybe if you take a look, it'll resonate with you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-chromosomal_Aaron

It seems that people who do claim to be Kohain tend to share an ancestor. The House of David ancestry would logically work the same way.
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16-02-2016, 04:21 PM
RE: how to use the bible agaisnt itself
(16-02-2016 04:16 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(16-02-2016 10:14 AM)Chas Wrote:  The DNA proves only that one is related to those who claim to be of the lineage of the House of David. Consider

How solid are those claims?

If people who have been told by their parents and grandparents that they have this special heritage also happen to share a DNA link at a much higher rate than the general Jewish population, then I would call the claims pretty good.

You would? I wouldn't. Evidence of shared ancestry is not evidence of a particular claimed ancestry.

Testimony of your grandparents is pretty weak. Many family legends are just that, legends.

Quote:I'm a bit too early in my own science education to really sink my teeth into this, but maybe if you take a look, it'll resonate with you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-chromosomal_Aaron

It seems that people who do claim to be Kohain tend to share an ancestor. The House of David ancestry would logically work the same way.

Yes, it would. It also would lack any supporting evidence.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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16-02-2016, 04:40 PM
RE: how to use the bible agaisnt itself
(16-02-2016 04:21 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(16-02-2016 04:16 PM)Aliza Wrote:  If people who have been told by their parents and grandparents that they have this special heritage also happen to share a DNA link at a much higher rate than the general Jewish population, then I would call the claims pretty good.

You would? I wouldn't. Evidence of shared ancestry is not evidence of a particular claimed ancestry.

Testimony of your grandparents is pretty weak. Many family legends are just that, legends.

Quote:I'm a bit too early in my own science education to really sink my teeth into this, but maybe if you take a look, it'll resonate with you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-chromosomal_Aaron

It seems that people who do claim to be Kohain tend to share an ancestor. The House of David ancestry would logically work the same way.

Yes, it would. It also would lack any supporting evidence.

Yes, but Chas, the only people who need to be convinced are the Jews. Many Jews do have confidence in their oral histories. The Lubavitcher Rebbe was considered to be of a valid Davidic line before DNA testing was even known. Many other families with this tradition are accepted as being Davidic by mainstream Judaism. We believe that we know our heritage, and we're the only people who need to believe it.

If the messianic candidate accomplishes the tasks and is accepted by the majority of Jewry, then he's the messiah. That's it.
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16-02-2016, 04:46 PM
RE: how to use the bible agaisnt itself
(16-02-2016 04:40 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(16-02-2016 04:21 PM)Chas Wrote:  You would? I wouldn't. Evidence of shared ancestry is not evidence of a particular claimed ancestry.

Testimony of your grandparents is pretty weak. Many family legends are just that, legends.


Yes, it would. It also would lack any supporting evidence.

Yes, but Chas, the only people who need to be convinced are the Jews. Many Jews do have confidence in their oral histories. The Lubavitcher Rebbe was considered to be of a valid Davidic line before DNA testing was even known. Many other families with this tradition are accepted as being Davidic by mainstream Judaism. We believe that we know our heritage, and we're the only people who need to believe it.

That is no different than any other claim that lacks evidence. Your confidence and belief does not make it fact.

Quote:If the messianic candidate accomplishes the tasks and is accepted by the majority of Jewry, then he's the messiah. That's it.

Sure, but so what? It is a meaningless belief to everyone else.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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16-02-2016, 05:13 PM (This post was last modified: 16-02-2016 05:18 PM by Aliza.)
RE: how to use the bible agaisnt itself
(16-02-2016 04:46 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(16-02-2016 04:40 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Yes, but Chas, the only people who need to be convinced are the Jews. Many Jews do have confidence in their oral histories. The Lubavitcher Rebbe was considered to be of a valid Davidic line before DNA testing was even known. Many other families with this tradition are accepted as being Davidic by mainstream Judaism. We believe that we know our heritage, and we're the only people who need to believe it.

That is no different than any other claim that lacks evidence. Your confidence and belief does not make it fact.

Quote:If the messianic candidate accomplishes the tasks and is accepted by the majority of Jewry, then he's the messiah. That's it.

Sure, but so what? It is a meaningless belief to everyone else.

The name of the game is Find the Jewish Messiah. If the Jews collectively agree that a particular guy meets our criteria, then he is our messiah. Your belief or support is yours to give or withhold.

Likewise, when the American people voted Obama into office, Obama actually became the President of the United States. Only registered American voters got a say, and the results are the results. The criteria used to determine the winner of the election was for the American people to decide upon, and only the Americans get to change the criteria. If people in China or Brazil, or anywhere else don't like the results of the American presidential election, then it's too bad; he's not their president, and the United States isn't their country.
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16-02-2016, 05:17 PM
RE: how to use the bible agaisnt itself
(16-02-2016 05:13 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(16-02-2016 04:46 PM)Chas Wrote:  That is no different than any other claim that lacks evidence. Your confidence and belief does not make it fact.


Sure, but so what? It is a meaningless belief to everyone else.

The name of the game is Find the Jewish Messiah. If the Jews collectively agree that a particular guy meets our criteria, then he is our messiah. Your belief or support is yours to give or withhold.

Likewise, when the American people voted Obama into office, Obama actually became the President of the United States. Only registered American voters got a say, and the results are the results. The criteria used to determine the winner of the election was for the American people to decide upon, and only the Americans get to change the criteria. If people in China or Brazille, or anywhere else don't like the results of American presidential election, then it's too bad; he's not their president, and the United States isn't their country.

I'm not concerned with who the Jews decide is their Messiah. I agree that Jesus is not him.

My beef here is that the DNA evidence cited is not evidence of anything more than relatedness, it is not evidence of relatedness to a particular ancestor.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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16-02-2016, 05:24 PM
RE: how to use the bible agaisnt itself
(16-02-2016 05:13 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(16-02-2016 04:46 PM)Chas Wrote:  That is no different than any other claim that lacks evidence. Your confidence and belief does not make it fact.


Sure, but so what? It is a meaningless belief to everyone else.

The name of the game is Find the Jewish Messiah. If the Jews collectively agree that a particular guy meets our criteria, then he is our messiah. Your belief or support is yours to give or withhold.

Likewise, when the American people voted Obama into office, Obama actually became the President of the United States. Only registered American voters got a say, and the results are the results. The criteria used to determine the winner of the election was for the American people to decide upon, and only the Americans get to change the criteria. If people in China or Brazille, or anywhere else don't like the results of the American presidential election, then it's too bad; he's not their president, and the United States isn't their country.
Aliza I really like reading your posts. I don't agree with some of your points but your posts explaining why Jesus isn't the messiah and about Judaism are very interesting .I'm glad theists like you are around posting in the site. You are really the opposite of the asshole Q. The fact that Jews never ever want to converts us is great in my book.Thumbsup

Religion is bullshit. The winner of the last person to post wins thread.Yes
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16-02-2016, 05:46 PM
RE: how to use the bible agaisnt itself
(16-02-2016 05:24 PM)Leo Wrote:  Aliza I really like reading your posts. I don't agree with some of your points but your posts explaining why Jesus isn't the messiah and about Judaism are very interesting .I'm glad theists like you are around posting in the site. You are really the opposite of the asshole Q. The fact that Jews never ever want to converts us is great in my book.Thumbsup

She has yet to refute B-b. Drinking Beverage

#sigh
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16-02-2016, 05:51 PM
RE: how to use the bible agaisnt itself
(16-02-2016 05:46 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(16-02-2016 05:24 PM)Leo Wrote:  Aliza I really like reading your posts. I don't agree with some of your points but your posts explaining why Jesus isn't the messiah and about Judaism are very interesting .I'm glad theists like you are around posting in the site. You are really the opposite of the asshole Q. The fact that Jews never ever want to converts us is great in my book.Thumbsup

She has yet to refute B-b. Drinking Beverage

There's nothing to refute. I'm all about that B-b. Smile
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16-02-2016, 11:41 PM
RE: how to use the bible agaisnt itself
(16-02-2016 02:48 PM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  
(16-02-2016 10:43 AM)mgoering Wrote:  And a question to the atheists on this site. I think all believers who visit this site should be treated with respect. Of course, that includes Aliza. But I don't understand the different levels of respect/disrespect. From the very little I've learned about Judaism, I find it just as fantastical as Christianity and Mormonism. Yet it seems to get a pass. What's up with that?

My $0.02. I like Jews. Not just because I am 25% myself but because they (in my experience) value knowledge. From what I understand, it is pretty well accepted that the exodus didn't happen. Can you imagine any christian saying that the nativity is bullshit? That is pretty honest IMO. I am pretty sure that many christians would not get into a time machine to verify the Jesus story but I imagine that many Jews would. I respect that. Plus, Jews don't try to convert you, they pretty much want to be left alone. I respect that too.

Yeah, I like Jews too. Especially Jewish comedians who poke fun at their own religion or religion in general.

Lewis Black is one of my favorite:




"Why hast thou forsaken me, o deity whose existence I doubt..." - Dr. Sheldon Cooper
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