how to use the bible agaisnt itself
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17-02-2016, 11:21 AM
RE: how to use the bible agaisnt itself
(17-02-2016 05:14 AM)Banjo Wrote:  
(19-01-2016 09:58 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Wow. Read it for yourself and not parrot the atheist websites--as if! So many here are getting there arguments from people on here--blind leading the blind.

Why don't you ask the Bible author for His advice? Smile

Q. I read it. It is the greatest tool for forming atheism. I am also a qualified priest. Something I did as a laugh back in the day in order to understand how to fight the great evil known as xianity. I passed with flying colours.

You seem to me to be a person with very little knowledge of actual scripture and come across as an absolute joke. You have no credibility with me, nor any other thinking member of this website.

Your hopeless and infantile debate with Mark Fulton has proven you absolutely ignorant of scripture. My advice to you is to leave this website where you appropriately come across as foolish, and never return.

You are a joke. An idiot and ignorant of your chosen belief system.
One of the most outstanding replies I have read in some time!!!!!
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17-02-2016, 11:53 AM
RE: how to use the bible agaisnt itself
(16-02-2016 10:07 AM)Aliza Wrote:  There are people today who know if they're from the House of David. The late Lubavitcher Rebbe was known to be from this house. For those who do not know, their DNA can be compared against those who do know. This is also how we identify Kohains. Those who have the tradition in their families of being Davidic, Levite, or Kohain also have a genetic link that displays a connection in the y-chromosome.

(17-02-2016 10:24 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  So you do or do not have a source text for the claim?

A source for what claim? It’s well documented on the internet that the late Rebbe had the family tradition that he was from a valid Davidic line. Are you asking if I can physically prove this claim? I cannot, and I don’t really have to. The Rebbe failed to complete the tasks set forth for the messiah, so he was not the messiah.

The New Testament tells us very clearly that Jesus is not Davidic. They’re practically screaming it from the roof tops! Had the NT writers left well enough alone, people probably would have accepted that he was from a valid Davidic line. The NT writers were just trying a little too hard. Wink

1. If Mary had a secret affair with someone from a valid Davidic line, then Jesus is a bastard.
2. If Mary was impregnated by G-d with Davidic DNA, then Jesus is a bastard.
3. If Mary had an affair with a Roman Solider, then Jesus is not Davidic.
4. If Mary got pregnant with either Joseph listed in the NT, then Jesus is not Davidic.

Based on descriptions provided in the New Testament, Mary and Joseph were legally married according to Jewish law. If you’re taking the stance that Jesus has DNA from two Jewish sources (Mary and David’s DNA), then this would render Jesus as a bastard. G-d provided the Jewish people with laws regarding marriage, and the only valid male that could impregnate Mary was Joseph.

(17-02-2016 10:24 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  And couldn't G_d be able to incarnate the Messiah through a virgin with the correct genetics as well? He did make the world in six days and saved the ark and the Jewish people in the Exodus... do you believe the OT God does actual miracles?

Could G-d incarnate the messiah through a virgin? That’s a trickier question, and I’m going to answer it but pay close attention to the language I’m using here.

According to Judaism, G-d is infinite, tells the truth (good and bad) and doesn’t lie or change his mind. The question is not could G-d perform this, but would G-d perform this. And the answer is no. G-d would not impregnate a virgin with the future messiah.

The messiah will come from David’s body; his seed. Impregnating anyone with the messiah is a breach of promise to David because it bypasses David’s body. We believe that G-d doesn’t break his promises.

Jewish miracles –no matter how fantastical- are performed in front of the entire Jewish community. This is because people Jews are skeptical by nature. A miracle performed in front of everyone is the minimum criteria for it being accepted as a miracle by the Jewish people. Mary was impregnated in privacy. Had this been a real Jewish miracle that the Jews would be expected to believe, it would have been handled very differently. Jews do not practice “faith” and do not rely on anyone’s word.

G-d cannot be David’s descendant. This violates G-d’s statement that he is not a man. It also violates the chain of events. The creator is not the creation’s creation. The infinite cannot be added to or subtracted from, so G-d (the infinite) cannot be limited (in any way, shape and/or form) to a human body.
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17-02-2016, 01:10 PM
RE: how to use the bible agaisnt itself
(17-02-2016 11:53 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(16-02-2016 10:07 AM)Aliza Wrote:  There are people today who know if they're from the House of David. The late Lubavitcher Rebbe was known to be from this house. For those who do not know, their DNA can be compared against those who do know. This is also how we identify Kohains. Those who have the tradition in their families of being Davidic, Levite, or Kohain also have a genetic link that displays a connection in the y-chromosome.

(17-02-2016 10:24 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  So you do or do not have a source text for the claim?

A source for what claim? It’s well documented on the internet that the late Rebbe had the family tradition that he was from a valid Davidic line. Are you asking if I can physically prove this claim? I cannot, and I don’t really have to. The Rebbe failed to complete the tasks set forth for the messiah, so he was not the messiah.

The New Testament tells us very clearly that Jesus is not Davidic. They’re practically screaming it from the roof tops! Had the NT writers left well enough alone, people probably would have accepted that he was from a valid Davidic line. The NT writers were just trying a little too hard. Wink

1. If Mary had a secret affair with someone from a valid Davidic line, then Jesus is a bastard.
2. If Mary was impregnated by G-d with Davidic DNA, then Jesus is a bastard.
3. If Mary had an affair with a Roman Solider, then Jesus is not Davidic.
4. If Mary got pregnant with either Joseph listed in the NT, then Jesus is not Davidic.

Based on descriptions provided in the New Testament, Mary and Joseph were legally married according to Jewish law. If you’re taking the stance that Jesus has DNA from two Jewish sources (Mary and David’s DNA), then this would render Jesus as a bastard. G-d provided the Jewish people with laws regarding marriage, and the only valid male that could impregnate Mary was Joseph.

(17-02-2016 10:24 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  And couldn't G_d be able to incarnate the Messiah through a virgin with the correct genetics as well? He did make the world in six days and saved the ark and the Jewish people in the Exodus... do you believe the OT God does actual miracles?

Could G-d incarnate the messiah through a virgin? That’s a trickier question, and I’m going to answer it but pay close attention to the language I’m using here.

According to Judaism, G-d is infinite, tells the truth (good and bad) and doesn’t lie or change his mind. The question is not could G-d perform this, but would G-d perform this. And the answer is no. G-d would not impregnate a virgin with the future messiah.

The messiah will come from David’s body; his seed. Impregnating anyone with the messiah is a breach of promise to David because it bypasses David’s body. We believe that G-d doesn’t break his promises.

Jewish miracles –no matter how fantastical- are performed in front of the entire Jewish community. This is because people Jews are skeptical by nature. A miracle performed in front of everyone is the minimum criteria for it being accepted as a miracle by the Jewish people. Mary was impregnated in privacy. Had this been a real Jewish miracle that the Jews would be expected to believe, it would have been handled very differently. Jews do not practice “faith” and do not rely on anyone’s word.

G-d cannot be David’s descendant. This violates G-d’s statement that he is not a man. It also violates the chain of events. The creator is not the creation’s creation. The infinite cannot be added to or subtracted from, so G-d (the infinite) cannot be limited (in any way, shape and/or form) to a human body.



You say, according to Judaism, God would not impregnate a virgin with the future Messiah, it has to be a descendant of David. But, according to Christianity, he does impregnate a virgin, and that child is Christ the Messiah. It's one belief system against another.

If you're just making a statement about what the tenets of Judaism are, then I can understand. If you're claiming that all the things in the Hebrew Bible are factual, and one day the Messiah will come, then I find it just as unbelievable and absurd as anything Christians believe.

What I've always failed to understand is, how someone from one faith can so fervently believe that theirs is the undeniable truth. But at the same time, they are aware that millions of other people believe just as fervently in their own religion as the one and only truth. There's no reasoning beyond that, such as, "we can account for this because of the culture in which these people grew up." No, it's simply, we have the truth and the others don't. It's just silly.

That's why I like the position of an atheist. We don't believe any of it, and we won't believe any of it until we have good evidence to back it up.

"Why hast thou forsaken me, o deity whose existence I doubt..." - Dr. Sheldon Cooper
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17-02-2016, 01:31 PM
RE: how to use the bible agaisnt itself
I like Aliza kicking Q ass. Aliza is explaining to Q why Christianity is another fake religion. Christianity is based in the false premise that Jesus is the Jewish messiah. Jesus don't accomplish anything , so saying he is the messiah is super ridiculous. From my perspective the whole messiah idea is nonsense but I can appreciate the Jews perspective of Jesus.

Religion is bullshit. The winner of the last person to post wins thread.Yes
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17-02-2016, 01:55 PM
RE: how to use the bible agaisnt itself
(17-02-2016 10:31 AM)Banjo Wrote:  
(17-02-2016 10:27 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  A qualified priest to refute Christianity? Priest of what sect...?

My debate with Mark has indeed proven a point--that he has no contemporaneous sources for any of his claims, only pages of commentary written several hundred to nearly two thousand years after Paul.

If you would like to meet me in the Boxing Ring, perhaps we can decide on a Bible topic together where you can demonstrate my ignorance to your satisfaction.


You're are pathetic, Give t up. I am a baptist minister and a pagan priest. You've no idea.

Go read the bible Q. You are as ignorant fool as I've ever met.

It is to laugh, now Q is all about contemporaneous sources, how many contemporaneous sources do we have about or from Jesus?

What a joke!

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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17-02-2016, 02:15 PM
RE: how to use the bible agaisnt itself
(17-02-2016 01:10 PM)mgoering Wrote:  
(17-02-2016 11:53 AM)Aliza Wrote:  A source for what claim? It’s well documented on the internet that the late Rebbe had the family tradition that he was from a valid Davidic line. Are you asking if I can physically prove this claim? I cannot, and I don’t really have to. The Rebbe failed to complete the tasks set forth for the messiah, so he was not the messiah.

The New Testament tells us very clearly that Jesus is not Davidic. They’re practically screaming it from the roof tops! Had the NT writers left well enough alone, people probably would have accepted that he was from a valid Davidic line. The NT writers were just trying a little too hard. Wink

1. If Mary had a secret affair with someone from a valid Davidic line, then Jesus is a bastard.
2. If Mary was impregnated by G-d with Davidic DNA, then Jesus is a bastard.
3. If Mary had an affair with a Roman Solider, then Jesus is not Davidic.
4. If Mary got pregnant with either Joseph listed in the NT, then Jesus is not Davidic.

Based on descriptions provided in the New Testament, Mary and Joseph were legally married according to Jewish law. If you’re taking the stance that Jesus has DNA from two Jewish sources (Mary and David’s DNA), then this would render Jesus as a bastard. G-d provided the Jewish people with laws regarding marriage, and the only valid male that could impregnate Mary was Joseph.


Could G-d incarnate the messiah through a virgin? That’s a trickier question, and I’m going to answer it but pay close attention to the language I’m using here.

According to Judaism, G-d is infinite, tells the truth (good and bad) and doesn’t lie or change his mind. The question is not could G-d perform this, but would G-d perform this. And the answer is no. G-d would not impregnate a virgin with the future messiah.

The messiah will come from David’s body; his seed. Impregnating anyone with the messiah is a breach of promise to David because it bypasses David’s body. We believe that G-d doesn’t break his promises.

Jewish miracles –no matter how fantastical- are performed in front of the entire Jewish community. This is because people Jews are skeptical by nature. A miracle performed in front of everyone is the minimum criteria for it being accepted as a miracle by the Jewish people. Mary was impregnated in privacy. Had this been a real Jewish miracle that the Jews would be expected to believe, it would have been handled very differently. Jews do not practice “faith” and do not rely on anyone’s word.

G-d cannot be David’s descendant. This violates G-d’s statement that he is not a man. It also violates the chain of events. The creator is not the creation’s creation. The infinite cannot be added to or subtracted from, so G-d (the infinite) cannot be limited (in any way, shape and/or form) to a human body.



You say, according to Judaism, God would not impregnate a virgin with the future Messiah, it has to be a descendant of David. But, according to Christianity, he does impregnate a virgin, and that child is Christ the Messiah. It's one belief system against another.

If you're just making a statement about what the tenets of Judaism are, then I can understand. If you're claiming that all the things in the Hebrew Bible are factual, and one day the Messiah will come, then I find it just as unbelievable and absurd as anything Christians believe.

What I've always failed to understand is, how someone from one faith can so fervently believe that theirs is the undeniable truth. But at the same time, they are aware that millions of other people believe just as fervently in their own religion as the one and only truth. There's no reasoning beyond that, such as, "we can account for this because of the culture in which these people grew up." No, it's simply, we have the truth and the others don't. It's just silly.

That's why I like the position of an atheist. We don't believe any of it, and we won't believe any of it until we have good evidence to back it up.

Leo nailed it in his explanation. I'm refuting the claim that Jesus is the Jewish messiah. I'm refuting the validity of the argument that Christians make to scare people into believing in Jesus. They do, afterall, source their claims in my people's book.

I do try to use wording like, "according to Judaism" or "The Torah says...." to preface my points, but when I'm addressing a fellow theist who does hold that the Hebrew Bible is real, I sometimes skip that disclaimer.
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18-02-2016, 08:29 AM
RE: how to use the bible agaisnt itself
(17-02-2016 01:31 PM)Leo Wrote:  I like Aliza kicking Q ass. Aliza is explaining to Q why Christianity is another fake religion. Christianity is based in the false premise that Jesus is the Jewish messiah. Jesus don't accomplish anything , so saying he is the messiah is super ridiculous. From my perspective the whole messiah idea is nonsense but I can appreciate the Jews perspective of Jesus.

I have ten bucks that Q will claim victory in less than 5 more posts to Aliza. Any takers? I do enjoy reading her posts though so I kind of hope he keeps it up.

(17-02-2016 11:53 AM)Aliza Wrote:  G-d cannot be David’s descendant. This violates G-d’s statement that he is not a man. It also violates the chain of events. The creator is not the creation’s creation. The infinite cannot be added to or subtracted from, so G-d (the infinite) cannot be limited (in any way, shape and/or form) to a human body.

Special pleading to commence in 3....2....1......

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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18-02-2016, 11:15 AM (This post was last modified: 18-02-2016 11:23 AM by Leo.)
RE: how to use the bible agaisnt itself
(18-02-2016 08:29 AM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  
(17-02-2016 01:31 PM)Leo Wrote:  I like Aliza kicking Q ass. Aliza is explaining to Q why Christianity is another fake religion. Christianity is based in the false premise that Jesus is the Jewish messiah. Jesus don't accomplish anything , so saying he is the messiah is super ridiculous. From my perspective the whole messiah idea is nonsense but I can appreciate the Jews perspective of Jesus.

I have ten bucks that Q will claim victory in less than 5 more posts to Aliza. Any takers? I do enjoy reading her posts though so I kind of hope he keeps it up.

(17-02-2016 11:53 AM)Aliza Wrote:  G-d cannot be David’s descendant. This violates G-d’s statement that he is not a man. It also violates the chain of events. The creator is not the creation’s creation. The infinite cannot be added to or subtracted from, so G-d (the infinite) cannot be limited (in any way, shape and/or form) to a human body.

Special pleading to commence in 3....2....1......

The Q was raped in the debate with Mark . The debate ended a long time ago . The Q turned that debate thread in another last person posts wins thread. Aliza is owning or destroying Q BIG TIME. The Q guy is really pathetic. He is making fool of himself big time. I wonder why he don't leave at this point. It's kinda sad actually. SadFacepalm

Religion is bullshit. The winner of the last person to post wins thread.Yes
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18-02-2016, 11:16 AM
RE: how to use the bible agaisnt itself
(17-02-2016 02:15 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(17-02-2016 01:10 PM)mgoering Wrote:  You say, according to Judaism, God would not impregnate a virgin with the future Messiah, it has to be a descendant of David. But, according to Christianity, he does impregnate a virgin, and that child is Christ the Messiah. It's one belief system against another.

If you're just making a statement about what the tenets of Judaism are, then I can understand. If you're claiming that all the things in the Hebrew Bible are factual, and one day the Messiah will come, then I find it just as unbelievable and absurd as anything Christians believe.

What I've always failed to understand is, how someone from one faith can so fervently believe that theirs is the undeniable truth. But at the same time, they are aware that millions of other people believe just as fervently in their own religion as the one and only truth. There's no reasoning beyond that, such as, "we can account for this because of the culture in which these people grew up." No, it's simply, we have the truth and the others don't. It's just silly.

That's why I like the position of an atheist. We don't believe any of it, and we won't believe any of it until we have good evidence to back it up.

Leo nailed it in his explanation. I'm refuting the claim that Jesus is the Jewish messiah. I'm refuting the validity of the argument that Christians make to scare people into believing in Jesus. They do, afterall, source their claims in my people's book.

I do try to use wording like, "according to Judaism" or "The Torah says...." to preface my points, but when I'm addressing a fellow theist who does hold that the Hebrew Bible is real, I sometimes skip that disclaimer.

Thank you for pointing this out, Aliza. This would explain, to some degree, why Christianity spreads so quickly around the world. Evangelizers spread the "Good News" that you only have to endure this shitty life (sorry, I'm imagining missionaries in the slums of Rio de Janeiro), but if you believe, heaven, in all it's glory, awaits.

Oh, and by the way, there's also this "Bad News". If you don't believe, things will be even shittier than this after you die. This, of course, only applies to people who know the "truth" and reject it. And since I just told you the "truth" you now have no excuse not to believe. Wahahaha! - Have a good life!

"Why hast thou forsaken me, o deity whose existence I doubt..." - Dr. Sheldon Cooper
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19-02-2016, 06:54 AM
RE: how to use the bible agaisnt itself
(17-02-2016 01:55 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  It is to laugh, now Q is all about contemporaneous sources, how many contemporaneous sources do we have about or from Jesus?

What a joke!

Special pleading is special! But you don't need contemporaneous sources if you know the True interpretation of the Bible.
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