how to use the bible agaisnt itself
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27-02-2016, 11:04 PM
RE: how to use the bible agaisnt itself
I don't know if anyone mentioned this, but check out 1 chronicles 21 vs 2 Samuel 24.
Both tell the same story. King David has a census for Israel, so God punishes him and the nation for it. Now the best part of all this is that it is the exact same story except for the cause of the census. In 2 Samuel it is God that, with his words, tells David to count the Isrealites. In 1 Chronicles it is Satan. Now either there is an internal error, and the Bible is not inerrant, or Satan and Yahweh are logically identical.

This was probably the strongest passage that convinced me the Bible was false.
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27-02-2016, 11:14 PM
RE: how to use the bible agaisnt itself
(27-02-2016 11:04 PM)DavidCG Wrote:  I don't know if anyone mentioned this, but check out 1 chronicles 21 vs 2 Samuel 24.
Both tell the same story. King David has a census for Israel, so God punishes him and the nation for it. Now the best part of all this is that it is the exact same story except for the cause of the census. In 2 Samuel it is God that, with his words, tells David to count the Isrealites. In 1 Chronicles it is Satan. Now either there is an internal error, and the Bible is not inerrant, or Satan and Yahweh are logically identical.

This was probably the strongest passage that convinced me the Bible was false.

So the talking animals made sense?

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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27-02-2016, 11:16 PM
RE: how to use the bible agaisnt itself
(27-02-2016 11:14 PM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  
(27-02-2016 11:04 PM)DavidCG Wrote:  I don't know if anyone mentioned this, but check out 1 chronicles 21 vs 2 Samuel 24.
Both tell the same story. King David has a census for Israel, so God punishes him and the nation for it. Now the best part of all this is that it is the exact same story except for the cause of the census. In 2 Samuel it is God that, with his words, tells David to count the Isrealites. In 1 Chronicles it is Satan. Now either there is an internal error, and the Bible is not inerrant, or Satan and Yahweh are logically identical.

This was probably the strongest passage that convinced me the Bible was false.

So the talking animals made sense?

When you beleive in miracles you can rationalize away a lot of things.
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28-02-2016, 07:20 AM
RE: how to use the bible agaisnt itself
(27-02-2016 11:14 PM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  
(27-02-2016 11:04 PM)DavidCG Wrote:  I don't know if anyone mentioned this, but check out 1 chronicles 21 vs 2 Samuel 24.
Both tell the same story. King David has a census for Israel, so God punishes him and the nation for it. Now the best part of all this is that it is the exact same story except for the cause of the census. In 2 Samuel it is God that, with his words, tells David to count the Isrealites. In 1 Chronicles it is Satan. Now either there is an internal error, and the Bible is not inerrant, or Satan and Yahweh are logically identical.

This was probably the strongest passage that convinced me the Bible was false.

So the talking animals made sense?

Organic Chemist, I had no idea you were such a bible literalist. Tongue
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28-02-2016, 07:33 AM
RE: how to use the bible agaisnt itself
(27-02-2016 11:04 PM)DavidCG Wrote:  I don't know if anyone mentioned this, but check out 1 chronicles 21 vs 2 Samuel 24.
Both tell the same story. King David has a census for Israel, so God punishes him and the nation for it. Now the best part of all this is that it is the exact same story except for the cause of the census. In 2 Samuel it is God that, with his words, tells David to count the Isrealites. In 1 Chronicles it is Satan. Now either there is an internal error, and the Bible is not inerrant, or Satan and Yahweh are logically identical.

This was probably the strongest passage that convinced me the Bible was false.

I'm not really following what the contradiction is. There are tons of instances in the bible where G-d takes some sort of action indirectly. 2 Samuel 24 doesn't say that G-d spoke to David directly. It doesn't specify how this action was taken.

If the US launches a rocket into enemy territory, and we're trying to explain what happened, we would probably say, "The US launched a rocket...." But if we wanted to provide more detail, then we might say, "The US Army launched a rocket."

Both statements are true. One is just more detailed.
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28-02-2016, 12:14 PM
RE: how to use the bible agaisnt itself
(28-02-2016 07:33 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(27-02-2016 11:04 PM)DavidCG Wrote:  I don't know if anyone mentioned this, but check out 1 chronicles 21 vs 2 Samuel 24.
Both tell the same story. King David has a census for Israel, so God punishes him and the nation for it. Now the best part of all this is that it is the exact same story except for the cause of the census. In 2 Samuel it is God that, with his words, tells David to count the Isrealites. In 1 Chronicles it is Satan. Now either there is an internal error, and the Bible is not inerrant, or Satan and Yahweh are logically identical.

This was probably the strongest passage that convinced me the Bible was false.

I'm not really following what the contradiction is. There are tons of instances in the bible where G-d takes some sort of action indirectly. 2 Samuel 24 doesn't say that G-d spoke to David directly. It doesn't specify how this action was taken.

Again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, “Go, number Israel and Judah.” 2 So the king said to Joab, the commander of the army, who was with him, “Go through all the tribes of Israel, from Dan to Beersheba, and number the people, that I may know the number of the people.” 2 Samuel 24: 1-2

God clearly takes action directly, and the passage indicates God did speak directly to David.
I don't see what there is to argue or discuss. It would be prudent to read the passage before making any claims about it.
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28-02-2016, 12:24 PM
RE: how to use the bible agaisnt itself
(28-02-2016 12:14 PM)DavidCG Wrote:  
(28-02-2016 07:33 AM)Aliza Wrote:  I'm not really following what the contradiction is. There are tons of instances in the bible where G-d takes some sort of action indirectly. 2 Samuel 24 doesn't say that G-d spoke to David directly. It doesn't specify how this action was taken.

Again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, “Go, number Israel and Judah.” 2 So the king said to Joab, the commander of the army, who was with him, “Go through all the tribes of Israel, from Dan to Beersheba, and number the people, that I may know the number of the people.” 2 Samuel 24: 1-2

God clearly takes action directly, and the passage indicates God did speak directly to David.
I don't see what there is to argue or discuss. It would be prudent to read the passage before making any claims about it.

Oh read it first. I didn't realize I was supposed to read it first. Good tip.

So if Private Adams is responsible for pushing the nuke button when and only when he gets the command, do we credit the detonation of the nuke to Private Adams or the five star General to issued the command?

In war meetings, are they discussing Private Adam's action, or the General's action?

I just don't see the discrepancy.
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28-02-2016, 01:03 PM
RE: how to use the bible agaisnt itself
Aliza, you posted that 2 Samuel 24 doesn't say God spoke directly to David. I then quoted the text in question. The quote literally says that God spoke to David.

Is the biblical translatin I am using a bad one? Is my hermeneutic incorrect? Does the passage I quote say that God didn't speak to David? Can you show me that the text of 2 Samuel 24 doesn't say that God spoke to David?
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28-02-2016, 04:20 PM
RE: how to use the bible agaisnt itself
(28-02-2016 07:20 AM)Aliza Wrote:  
(27-02-2016 11:14 PM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  So the talking animals made sense?

Organic Chemist, I had no idea you were such a bible literalist. Tongue

I'm not. Smile

I just find it funny when people say that this is the word of a deity and an allegory when it suits their purpose but balk a the idea that the entire thing is an allegory. (not saying you fall into this category)

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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28-02-2016, 04:27 PM
RE: how to use the bible agaisnt itself
(28-02-2016 01:03 PM)DavidCG Wrote:  Aliza, you posted that 2 Samuel 24 doesn't say God spoke directly to David. I then quoted the text in question. The quote literally says that God spoke to David.

Is the biblical translatin I am using a bad one? Is my hermeneutic incorrect? Does the passage I quote say that God didn't speak to David? Can you show me that the text of 2 Samuel 24 doesn't say that God spoke to David?

2 Samuel 24: 1 - And again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel and He moved David against them, saying, "Go count Israel and Judah."

לֵאמֹר <--- This is the relevant word from 2 Samuel 24:1. I've linked you a wiktionary page which gives a brief definition. It doesn't mean speaks like literally talking to. "Commands," "decrees," or "intends" are included in this possible understanding.

1 Chronicles 21:1 - Now Satan arose upon Israel, and he moved David to count Israel.

We know through the Torah that G-d spoke to directly to Moses, and to entire Jewish nation. Without diving into my bible for a 10-hour refresher on the subject, I think he also spoke directly to Bilam, but I can’t think of anyone else. There may well be other people too that I’m forgetting about.

The point being that in reading the bible, we learn that “face to face” discussion with G-d is very rare. David was not one of the people G-d felt inclined to speak directly to. We learn about David through the writings of the prophets who interacted with him; primarily Nathan. (Prophets do not speak directly to G-d.) The most famous conversations that are written about between G-d and David are through the prophet, Nathan. I’m not aware of any instance where G-d spoke directly to David, and David was not considered to be a prophet.

In understanding the mechanics of Judaism, it seems clear to me that when the word “Saying” or “speaks” is used here, it’s a euphemism for getting the message across one way or another. It does not mean literal verbal communication. In 2 Samuel, the passage is basically saying, “G-d got this message across to David.” In 1 Chronicles, we understand that G-d sent the message through the actions of Satan.

In either case, it’s ultimately G-d’s orders that are issued and the mode in which they’re carried out is not especially relevant to understanding the main idea of the story.
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