how to use the bible agaisnt itself
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28-02-2016, 05:30 PM
RE: how to use the bible agaisnt itself
You are right the mode of communication doesn't affect the story all that much. My arguement is it is logically inconsistent, and that undermines the inerrancy of scripture. Especially a literal interpretation. I think we are coming at this from two different traditions.
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29-02-2016, 01:36 PM
RE: how to use the bible agaisnt itself
(25-02-2016 08:58 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(24-02-2016 02:48 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  1. I've debated the meaning of "almah" elsewhere. It is a miracle sign, not a big deal for God who led the Exodus or brought Abraham and Sarah a child in their old age. On a personal note, I know that Jewish people abhor saying the word is used in Isaiah for "virgin" because their are Christian implications, however, it would have been more appropriate for you to have written "not virgin in this usage". You should know that the Hebrew word may be used as young woman or virgin.

Jewish people do not abhor this because of the Christian implications. We abhor this because it’s wrong and we believe that changing the bible to suit your purposes is both theologically, morally, and intellectually dishonest.

Let me try this parallel: All people enrolled in a class are students. All people leading a class are teachers. Teachers can be students, and students can be teachers, but not all students are teachers and not all teachers are students.

Likewise, all people who are young and female are young women. All women who have not had sexual intercourse are virgins. Virgins can be young, and young woman can be virgins. But not all virgins are young and not all young women are virgins.

When you call someone “miss” or “ma’am,” as you might in a store or at a restaurant, you’re not making a definitive statement about her sexual or marital status. You’re acknowledging her gender and making an approximation of her age.

…Or do you ask every woman you meet whether she’s had sex or not so you know how to address her? Q, how would you address me? Am I a miss or a ma’am?

The Hebrew word is used elsewhere for young woman, or variously, virgin. Yes, scholars, Jewish, Christian and secular debate whether Isaiah 7:14 is virgin or young woman. Please address my other concerns as stated before:

2. The Tanakh says God's favor is with David, not like it was from Saul, I remember that. Do you have a chapter and verse I can look up re: Solomon and favor, and Solomon and "carrying the throne"? And if you do not, are you open to the truth claims of the Tanakh regarding its divine nature? Do you believe the Tanakh is the Word of G_d or...?

3. Miriam and Yoseph would have had a blessing ceremony over wine, yes, then Yoseph would have gone traditionally to his father's house to build a house for his bride, and when the father deemed it ready, would have brought his bride home, yes. This ceremony of betrothal is a beautiful picture of what Y'shua did in the Last Supper--it too was an engagement. And yes, woe to him or her if the bride was not a virgin at wedding time! Yes. I already wrote that Yoseph was wanting to quietly have a get rather than make Miriam ashamed. Yes. If you slow down a bit and read what I write, you will understand all.

Thank you.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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29-02-2016, 01:38 PM
RE: how to use the bible agaisnt itself
(27-02-2016 11:48 AM)Seeking_Truth Wrote:  Anything you state about the bible being wrong they just would respond with: "you're taking the text out of context" "you don't know how to read the bible"

But atheists certainly do take the Bible out of context, particularly since they often (not always) are parroting things they've heard elsewhere without reading the Bible for themselves.

Context is very important in criticizing other ancient books, so why would Bible study be different?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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29-02-2016, 01:41 PM
RE: how to use the bible agaisnt itself
(27-02-2016 11:04 PM)DavidCG Wrote:  I don't know if anyone mentioned this, but check out 1 chronicles 21 vs 2 Samuel 24.
Both tell the same story. King David has a census for Israel, so God punishes him and the nation for it. Now the best part of all this is that it is the exact same story except for the cause of the census. In 2 Samuel it is God that, with his words, tells David to count the Isrealites. In 1 Chronicles it is Satan. Now either there is an internal error, and the Bible is not inerrant, or Satan and Yahweh are logically identical.

This was probably the strongest passage that convinced me the Bible was false.

Hi David,

"...Again the anger of the Lord burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, “Go and take a census of Israel and Judah.”

...And the Bible says God uses Satan and people and everything to do what He wants. You can be mad at God for using Satan, I guess, but not for being inconsistent in 2 Sam and 1 Chron.

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29-02-2016, 01:42 PM
RE: how to use the bible agaisnt itself
(28-02-2016 05:30 PM)DavidCG Wrote:  You are right the mode of communication doesn't affect the story all that much. My arguement is it is logically inconsistent, and that undermines the inerrancy of scripture. Especially a literal interpretation. I think we are coming at this from two different traditions.

I think Aliza made an excellent point, and you don't care for the point being made!

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29-02-2016, 04:02 PM
RE: how to use the bible agaisnt itself
(29-02-2016 01:38 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(27-02-2016 11:48 AM)Seeking_Truth Wrote:  Anything you state about the bible being wrong they just would respond with: "you're taking the text out of context" "you don't know how to read the bible"

But atheists certainly do take the Bible out of context, particularly since they often (not always) are parroting things they've heard elsewhere without reading the Bible for themselves.

Context is very important in criticizing other ancient books, so why would Bible study be different?

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29-02-2016, 06:20 PM
RE: how to use the bible agaisnt itself
(29-02-2016 01:38 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(27-02-2016 11:48 AM)Seeking_Truth Wrote:  Anything you state about the bible being wrong they just would respond with: "you're taking the text out of context" "you don't know how to read the bible"

But atheists certainly do take the Bible out of context, particularly since they often (not always) are parroting things they've heard elsewhere without reading the Bible for themselves.

Context is very important in criticizing other ancient books, so why would Bible study be different?

Just when something puts the bible in a bad spot is taken out of context, otherwise is fine.

"Skepticism is the first step towards truth" -Denis Diderot
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02-03-2016, 08:21 AM
RE: how to use the bible agaisnt itself
(29-02-2016 06:20 PM)Seeking_Truth Wrote:  
(29-02-2016 01:38 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  But atheists certainly do take the Bible out of context, particularly since they often (not always) are parroting things they've heard elsewhere without reading the Bible for themselves.

Context is very important in criticizing other ancient books, so why would Bible study be different?

Just when something puts the bible in a bad spot is taken out of context, otherwise is fine.

No, I would defend good doctrine AND assail bad doctrine in context. We're talking about trimming God's messages, by the way. The Bible says, "There is no God." Do you know the context of that statement?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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02-03-2016, 08:23 AM
RE: how to use the bible agaisnt itself
(02-03-2016 08:21 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(29-02-2016 06:20 PM)Seeking_Truth Wrote:  Just when something puts the bible in a bad spot is taken out of context, otherwise is fine.

No, I would defend good doctrine AND assail bad doctrine in context. We're talking about trimming God's messages, by the way. The Bible says, "There is no God." Do you know the context of that statement?

It also says there is a tree on a hill that can be seen from all around the earth, do you know the context of that line? Lecture_preist

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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02-03-2016, 08:46 AM
RE: how to use the bible agaisnt itself
(02-03-2016 08:23 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(02-03-2016 08:21 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  No, I would defend good doctrine AND assail bad doctrine in context. We're talking about trimming God's messages, by the way. The Bible says, "There is no God." Do you know the context of that statement?

It also says there is a tree on a hill that can be seen from all around the earth, do you know the context of that line? Lecture_preist

Actually, no. I don't. No
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