i'm so stuck ... help
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16-04-2016, 05:24 PM
i'm so stuck ... help
i was thinking about universe recently and thought that there might be a god i'm not sure though i can not deny or prove either. but those holy books which are bible and qura'n they are like a really hateful, sexist , homophobic books . how can we know if they are man-made or not ? how did the holy books guessed all those scientific facts before human being did ? did they copy the older nations science (greek - maya)? or god gave them some of his knowledge ? i'm really confused and lost between fake proofs and real ones

it was so old i mean there was no technology like nowadays . how did they find out
find out that there are 11 planets.
"And it is We who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it."
(The Qur'an, 51:47) that earth expands
and that mountains prevent earthquake
seems like there is no response for that.

and if mohamad stole these info from ancients , myths say that he couldnt read or write so.....[/size][/font]
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16-04-2016, 05:39 PM
RE: i'm so stuck ... help
(16-04-2016 05:24 PM)rosechaos Wrote:  i was thinking about universe recently and thought that there might be a god i'm not sure though i can not deny or prove either.

If there is a claim for which you can't find good evidence then the rational response is to not accept the claim and simply remain unconvinced.

Quote: but those holy books which are bible and qura'n they are like a really hateful, sexist , homophobic books . how can we know if they are man-made or not ?how did the holy books guessed all those scientific facts before human being did ? did they copy the older nations science (greek - maya)? or god gave them some of his knowledge ? i'm really confused and lost between fake proofs and real ones

Do you have an example? I don't know of anything that is clearly a scientific fact that the people of the time it was written could not have known or reasonably guessed.

Quote: it was so old i mean there was no technology like nowadays . how did they find out
find out that there are 11 planets.
"And it is We who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it."
(The Qur'an, 51:47) that earth expands
and that mountains prevent earthquake
seems like there is no response for that.

I don't understand your question.
Where does it say there are 11 planets and why do you think that is correct?
What makes you think that the earth is expanding?
What makes you think that mountains prevent earthquakes?

Quote:and if mohamad stole these info from ancients , myths say that he couldnt read or write so.....[/size][/font]

Ancient people had a great deal of practical experience with how things worked even if they didn't always understand the mechanisms behind things. They weren't stupid, just ignorant of physics, medicine, cosmology, etc.

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16-04-2016, 06:18 PM
RE: i'm so stuck ... help
(16-04-2016 05:24 PM)rosechaos Wrote:  i was thinking about universe recently and thought that there might be a god i'm not sure though i can not deny or prove either. but those holy books which are bible and qura'n they are like a really hateful, sexist , homophobic books . how can we know if they are man-made or not ?

Does it matter? If they are hateful, sexist, homophobic books then have done with them. If they were written by hateful people that's bad but so much worse if they were written by a hateful god.

Quote: how did the holy books guessed all those scientific facts before human being did ?

To the best of my knowledge they didn't. They got very nearly everything completely wrong and their followers pick a couple of passages that they can twist to mean something that looks like it might agree with scientific fact.

Quote: it was so old i mean there was no technology like nowadays . how did they find out find out that there are 11 planets.

There aren't. There are either 8 (Mercury through Neptune), 9 (if you grandfather Pluto), 13 if you include all the dwarf planets that we currently know about and a little over twothousand if you include all the exoplanets we've discovered to date. None of those numbers is 11 so their claim is quite simply false.

Quote:"And it is We who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it."
(The Qur'an, 51:47) that earth expands
and that mountains prevent earthquake
seems like there is no response for that.

The Earth doesn't expand. Mountains don't prevent earthquakes. That's just plain silly. The Earth is pretty much the size that it formed at. The crust moves around its surface but never gets much larger or smaller. Earthquakes and mountains are produced by this moving crust.

See? The Qur'an is wrong! Wasn't that easy?

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16-04-2016, 07:19 PM
RE: i'm so stuck ... help
(16-04-2016 05:24 PM)rosechaos Wrote:  i was thinking about universe recently and thought that there might be a god i'm not sure though i can not deny or prove either. but those holy books which are bible and qura'n they are like a really hateful, sexist , homophobic books . how can we know if they are man-made or not ? how did the holy books guessed all those scientific facts before human being did ? did they copy the older nations science (greek - maya)? or god gave them some of his knowledge ? i'm really confused and lost between fake proofs and real ones

You need to define what parts of the Bible and Q'uran you felt were so convincing about science. There are plenty of stories that are totally unscientific. Even the story of Genesis by itself is scientifically impossible. For example it's not possible for the entire human race to descend from one couple who lived 6,000-10,000 years ago, it's not possible that our planet is that old anyway, there are many ways to carbon date fossils accurately that prove animals lived on this planet millions of years ago, etc.

(16-04-2016 05:24 PM)rosechaos Wrote:  it was so old i mean there was no technology like nowadays . how did they find out
find out that there are 11 planets.
"And it is We who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it."
(The Qur'an, 51:47) that earth expands
and that mountains prevent earthquake
seems like there is no response for that.

There are not 11 planets, our solar system has 8 planets, technically our universe has billions and billions of planets, the Bible doesn't account for this number and it doesn't seem concerned about any other planets, our galaxy or other galaxies. It's solely concerned with this one tiny blue and green one orbiting one sun out of billions of other stars.

There's no scientific theory concerning the Earth expanding or mountains preventing earthquakes, not sure what you mean by that. Do you mean the universe expanding? I would still need to review the verses that say this but even if it did there's no reason to believe it came form a divine source. If you were a God and you wanted to tell your followers some important scientific information wouldn't you start with DNA, ways to prevent disease, the human nervous system, etc. Why would you relate so much useless information?

(16-04-2016 05:24 PM)rosechaos Wrote:  and if mohamad stole these info from ancients , myths say that he couldn't read or write so.....[/size][/font]

Probably none of the "writers" of the Bible could read or write, the first printed Bible didn't even get printed until the 1400's and most Christians/Muslims back then weren't literate and depended on the words of their priests to read the Bible for them and interpret what the stories meant. Even if they could read it, the text was written in Latin, by then already a dead language only spoken by religious clergy members so most followers were still unable to read it for themselves in their own language.

Most stories in the Bible were written down after being told over many years as an oral tradition so perhaps Muhammad couldn't read or write but he could speak and could tell others his important message from God and they could write it down, it still doesn't prove his message was actually from God and there's nothing he said that was so incredible it could only come from God.

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16-04-2016, 10:12 PM
RE: i'm so stuck ... help
(16-04-2016 05:24 PM)rosechaos Wrote:  i was thinking about universe recently and thought that there might be a god i'm not sure though i can not deny or prove either. but those holy books which are bible and qura'n they are like a really hateful, sexist , homophobic books . how can we know if they are man-made or not ?

There is no reason to believe that they aren't. For any functional definition of the word "know", we know that the Bible, the Torah, and everything else are all authored by humans.

(16-04-2016 05:24 PM)rosechaos Wrote:  how did the holy books guessed all those scientific facts before human being did ?

They didn't. Those who tell you that they did are either wrong or lying.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
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16-04-2016, 10:36 PM
RE: i'm so stuck ... help
(16-04-2016 05:24 PM)rosechaos Wrote:  i was thinking about universe recently and thought that there might be a god i'm not sure though i can not deny or prove either. but those holy books which are bible and qura'n they are like a really hateful, sexist , homophobic books . how can we know if they are man-made or not ? how did the holy books guessed all those scientific facts before human being did ? did they copy the older nations science (greek - maya)? or god gave them some of his knowledge ? i'm really confused and lost between fake proofs and real ones

it was so old i mean there was no technology like nowadays . how did they find out
find out that there are 11 planets.
"And it is We who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it."
(The Qur'an, 51:47) that earth expands
and that mountains prevent earthquake
seems like there is no response for that.

and if mohamad stole these info from ancients , myths say that he couldnt read or write so.....[/size][/font]

There is only one way to know anything and that's by means of reason. If a claim does not stand to reason it should be rejected. Many people claim that the Bible predicts things that have come true or speaks of things that science has discovered but this is because the Bible is so vague that it can be interpreted creatively to fit almost any situation. That alone is reason to reject the claim that it is divinely written. If it were it would be clear, unambiguous, without contradictions and easily understood by all. There would not be thousands upon thousands of different interpretations and sects spun off like there are.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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16-04-2016, 11:38 PM (This post was last modified: 16-04-2016 11:41 PM by Reltzik.)
RE: i'm so stuck ... help
(16-04-2016 05:24 PM)rosechaos Wrote:  i was thinking about universe recently and thought that there might be a god i'm not sure though i can not deny or prove either. but those holy books which are bible and qura'n they are like a really hateful, sexist , homophobic books . how can we know if they are man-made or not ? how did the holy books guessed all those scientific facts before human being did ? did they copy the older nations science (greek - maya)? or god gave them some of his knowledge ? i'm really confused and lost between fake proofs and real ones

it was so old i mean there was no technology like nowadays . how did they find out
find out that there are 11 planets.
"And it is We who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it."
(The Qur'an, 51:47) that earth expands
and that mountains prevent earthquake
seems like there is no response for that.

and if mohamad stole these info from ancients , myths say that he couldnt read or write so.....[/size][/font]

I'm not familiar with ANY source that claims 11 planets.

In the Solar System, by current definitions, there are 8 planets -- Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune.

Pluto USED to be counted as a planet (making 9), but it was discovered that there were several other bodies sharing its orbit, making it just a single asteroid in an asteroid belt (called the Kuiper Belt) rather than its own planet. If we counted it as a planet we would probably have to count the other three similarly-sized bodies in the Kuiper belt, (Eris, Makemake, and Haumea), bringing the count to 12. We'd also DEFINITELY have to include Ceres (in the asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter), upping the count to 13.

The ancients were not familiar with any of the asteroids, nor with Neptune or Uranus. They DID know the rest of the planets because they could be seen with the naked eye, and the fact that they did not hold still with respect to the sidereal stars made them noteworthy. However, the sun and the moon were also counted as planets (because they too did not hold still with respect to the stars), and Earth was NOT counted as one (because, well, we were on it). So going back to... well, about the introduction of human beings actually keeping records about such things... there would have been records of 5 planets, or 7 counting sun and moon.

Also, a couple thousand exoplanets have been discovered.

I don't see how 11 could be the right count by any of these methods of counting, and I don't know any religious scriptures claiming there were 11.

Also, mountains do not prevent earthquakes and the Earth is not expanding, at least not by the understanding of modern science. (The Earth expanding WAS, briefly, considered as a hypothesis to explain why the coasts of South America and Africa seemed to fit together, but it was thoroughly disproven and plate tectonics have since become the established explanation.)

What are your sources for any of these, and have you tried fact-checking them?

EDIT-ADDITION: Also, even if Mohammed couldn't write, he could certainly have heard of things that had been written down through literate members of his community. Though it doesn't seem that these are things worth writing down in the first place.
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17-04-2016, 12:05 AM
RE: i'm so stuck ... help
(16-04-2016 05:24 PM)rosechaos Wrote:  i was thinking about universe recently and thought that there might be a god i'm not sure though i can not deny or prove either.

Why exactly you cannot deny existence of space wizard? It's not like there are some evidence for this undefined something existing.

(16-04-2016 05:24 PM)rosechaos Wrote:  but those holy books which are bible and qura'n they are like a really hateful, sexist , homophobic books . how can we know if they are man-made or not ?

Who else could write them if not man?

(16-04-2016 05:24 PM)rosechaos Wrote:  how did the holy books guessed all those scientific facts before human being did ?

You meant to ask how humans writing such managed to guess something right I think. Also one have to ask if said books really get something right or it is just interpretation and depending on vague language.

(16-04-2016 05:24 PM)rosechaos Wrote:  did they copy the older nations science (greek - maya)? or god gave them some of his knowledge ?

There is no evidence for something called god.

(16-04-2016 05:24 PM)rosechaos Wrote:  it was so old i mean there was no technology like nowadays . how did they find out
find out that there are 11 planets.

Since as other are saying there aren't 11 planets I guess they were lying.

(16-04-2016 05:24 PM)rosechaos Wrote:  (The Qur'an, 51:47) that earth expands
and that mountains prevent earthquake
seems like there is no response for that.

Idiocy isn't worth responding to.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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17-04-2016, 12:34 AM
RE: i'm so stuck ... help
(16-04-2016 05:24 PM)rosechaos Wrote:  [...] how did the holy books guess all those scientific facts before human being did?
They didn't. There are zero factually correct scientific "facts" in the Christian bible.

Quote:did they copy the older nations science (greek - maya)? or god gave them some of his knowledge ? I'm really confused and lost between fake proofs and real ones
There is no "god" to have given them any scientific knowledge. The notion of any/all gods is just a mythical concept.

Quote:find out that there are 11 planets.
The Qur'an [12:4] says; Recall that Joseph (Yousuf) said to his father— O my father, I saw eleven planets, and the sun, and the moon; I saw them prostrating before me."

Does this mean that according to the Qur'an there are eleven planets in our solar system? Not at all. Jacob (Joseph's father) had 12 sons, Joseph plus 11 others (see Genesis 35:22— Now the sons of Jacob were twelve).

The "planets" (see Genesis 37:9— I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me) simply represent Joseph's brothers. The moon and the sun represent his mother and father. This is validated by Genesis 37:10 where the dream is interpreted by Jacob and the symbolism explained.

Quote:"And it is We who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it." The Qur'an [51:47]
A typical English translation of verse 51:47 prior to the time of Edwin Hubble's discovery in the 1930's of an expanding universe says: We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent. Originally then, there was no mention of the universe "expanding".

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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17-04-2016, 12:41 AM
RE: i'm so stuck ... help
You seem to have assessed one aspect that is perfectly correct.

-"You are confused"

Coming here is a first step in removing confusion. We will try to give you honest answers to things we know. Those answers are supported by evidence and believing claims without evidence will only create more confusion.

The books in question were made by human beings, changed and edited by humans. Transcribed and passed down with errors made by humans. Altered so many times with lies and edited by Kings and priests that they dont even resemble the original texts (if you can find any)

If you would like to read actual important information that other humans have written, go visit a library.
There are lots of books there with a lot more to offer.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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