if they read the gospel...
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01-12-2014, 08:02 AM
RE: if they read the gospel...
(01-12-2014 07:33 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(01-12-2014 07:30 AM)Chas Wrote:  It's still bullshit. "Sin" is non-existent - it is the invented ill for which the gospel is the invented cure.

This is perhaps a part of the issue, the belief that there is no such thing as "sin", that there is nothing wrong in man's inherent being, that causes him to fall into the grasp of violence and bigotry, and the all the problems arise from external institutions.

Human behavior is complex and not explainable by the childish, simplistic concept of "sin".

The study of psychology, neurology, development, and social interactions results in actual problem descriptions and useful approaches to issues.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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01-12-2014, 08:36 AM
RE: if they read the gospel...
(01-12-2014 04:23 AM)shallwechat71 Wrote:  If the brown family, the martin family, the garner gamily etc were exposed to the gospel more of then education, the whole furguson and trayvon martin tragidys would not happen.

Any time someone prefaces a statement about how people need more religion and less education, I immediately get skeptical. That's not to say that public education is the best thing in the world, or something, but historically, when someone starts with that, what follows tends to be very inane and ill-informed (go figure).


(01-12-2014 04:23 AM)shallwechat71 Wrote:  This player forgets that an education plays a great role in lifting people out of poverty and preventong these cop confrontations.

Exactly. As much as the religious right hates it, education correlates negatively with things like poverty, crime, and teenage pregnancy, but it also correlates negatively with religiousness. This is why they have to demonize public education as "liberal brainwashing" and try to insist that good old fashioned homeschooling is better.
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01-12-2014, 08:45 AM
RE: if they read the gospel...
(01-12-2014 07:33 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(01-12-2014 07:30 AM)Chas Wrote:  It's still bullshit. "Sin" is non-existent - it is the invented ill for which the gospel is the invented cure.

This is perhaps a part of the issue, the belief that there is no such thing as "sin", that there is nothing wrong in man's inherent being, that causes him to fall into the grasp of violence and bigotry, and the all the problems arise from external institutions.

Yep. It's not like the Bible has ever been used to justify bigotry or violence *cough*crusadesslaveryandracism*cough*. Nah, that never happened.

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01-12-2014, 09:28 AM
RE: if they read the gospel...
(01-12-2014 04:23 AM)shallwechat71 Wrote:  This player forgets that an education plays a great role in lifting people out of poverty and preventong these cop confrontations.

The US spends more money per student on education, than any other country in the world with abysmal results.

For those who like to say education is the cure, what sort of education do they have in mind? Is it educating students for the sake of having economic opportunities? Education that compels them to be more virtuous, empathetic, and to value human life, to recognize that they have moral obligations, and should be directed to a moral life?

If you believe education produces the latter, than you're living in a fantasy world, no better than the religious ones.
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01-12-2014, 09:40 AM
RE: if they read the gospel...
(01-12-2014 09:28 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(01-12-2014 04:23 AM)shallwechat71 Wrote:  This player forgets that an education plays a great role in lifting people out of poverty and preventong these cop confrontations.

The US spends more money per student on education, than any other country in the world with abysmal results.

Silly, untrue generalization.

Quote:For those who like to say education is the cure, what sort of education do they have in mind?

One based in reality for starters.

Quote:Is it educating students for the sake of having economic opportunities? Education that compels them to be more virtuous, empathetic, and to value human life, to recognize that they have moral obligations, and should be directed to a moral life?

All of the above plus critical thinking.

Quote:If you believe education produces the latter, than you're living in a fantasy world, no better than the religious ones.

No, the evidence is quite clear that having a quality education is inversely proportional to having strong religious belief.

But it is refreshing to see you admit that religion is fantasy.

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01-12-2014, 09:51 AM
RE: if they read the gospel...
(01-12-2014 07:24 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(01-12-2014 04:23 AM)shallwechat71 Wrote:  Im typing this on a smartphone, so there will be typos. Lately a new orleans saints player. (Tight end) makes a facebook comment. If the brown family, the martin family, the garner gamily etc were exposed to the gospel more of then education, the whole furguson and trayvon martin tragidys would not happen.

I dont understand in how reading the gospel would of made any difference. Who is this football player to know if exposure to the gospel would of made a difference? I suspect these families read the gospels frequently. This player forgets that an education plays a great role in lifting people out of poverty and preventong these cop confrontations.

No, that's not what he said, in fact his post was directed to everybody, on all sides of the Ferguson issue, and appears to be sympathetic with all parties, and critical of all parties as well. This is likely why the response to his remarks have been overwhelmingly positive by all sides of the debate. The only ones who appear to be offended by his remarks are a handful of atheists.

And he never said "reading" the Gospel is the cure, but that Gospel itself is the cure, in its message of hope and redemption in the face of man's sin. All this involves more than just reading the text, but accepting it as well. You can disagree with this all you like, but don't mischaracterize what he said, and who he was saying it to.

Here's his post in full:

"At some point while I was playing or preparing to play Monday Night Football, the news broke about the Ferguson Decision. After trying to figure out how I felt, I decided to write it down. Here are my thoughts:

I'M ANGRY because the stories of injustice that have been passed down for generations seem to be continuing before our very eyes.

I'M FRUSTRATED, because pop culture, music and movies glorify these types of police citizen altercations and promote an invincible attitude that continues to get young men killed in real life, away from safety movie sets and music studios.

I'M FEARFUL because in the back of my mind I know that although I'm a law abiding citizen I could still be looked upon as a "threat" to those who don't know me. So I will continue to have to go the extra mile to earn the benefit of the doubt.

I'M EMBARRASSED because the looting, violent protests, and law breaking only confirm, and in the minds of many, validate, the stereotypes and thus the inferior treatment.

I'M SAD, because another young life was lost from his family, the racial divide has widened, a community is in shambles, accusations, insensitivity hurt and hatred are boiling over, and we may never know the truth about what happened that day.

I'M SYMPATHETIC, because I wasn't there so I don't know exactly what happened. Maybe Darren Wilson acted within his rights and duty as an officer of the law and killed Michael Brown in self defense like any of us would in the circumstance. Now he has to fear the backlash against himself and his loved ones when he was only doing his job. What a horrible thing to endure. OR maybe he provoked Michael and ignited the series of events that led to him eventually murdering the young man to prove a point.

I'M OFFENDED, because of the insulting comments I've seen that are not only insensitive but dismissive to the painful experiences of others.

I'M CONFUSED, because I don't know why it's so hard to obey a policeman. You will not win!!! And I don't know why some policeman abuse their power. Power is a responsibility, not a weapon to brandish and lord over the populace.

I'M INTROSPECTIVE, because sometimes I want to take "our" side without looking at the facts in situations like these. Sometimes I feel like it's us against them. Sometimes I'm just as prejudiced as people I point fingers at. And that's not right. How can I look at white skin and make assumptions but not want assumptions made about me? That's not right.

I'M HOPELESS, because I've lived long enough to expect things like this to continue to happen. I'm not surprised and at some point my little children are going to inherit the weight of being a minority and all that it entails.

I'M HOPEFUL, because I know that while we still have race issues in America, we enjoy a much different normal than those of our parents and grandparents. I see it in my personal relationships with teammates, friends and mentors. And it's a beautiful thing.

I'M ENCOURAGED, because ultimately the problem is not a SKIN problem, it is a SIN problem. SIN is the reason we rebel against authority. SIN is the reason we abuse our authority. SIN is the reason we are racist, prejudiced and lie to cover for our own. SIN is the reason we riot, loot and burn. BUT I'M ENCOURAGED because God has provided a solution for sin through the his son Jesus and with it, a transformed heart and mind. One that's capable of looking past the outward and seeing what's truly important in every human being. The cure for the Michael Brown, Trayvon Martin, Tamir Rice and Eric Garner tragedies is not education or exposure. It's the Gospel. So, finally, I'M ENCOURAGED because the Gospel gives mankind hope."

http://www.khq.com/story/27489010/nfl-pl...goes-viral
Much of this post makes sence. I have a few minor issues with some things but they aren't really worth arguing against.
I have a major issue with the last part though. Sin doesn't exist and I'm not convinced that the answer to today's issues can be solved by a ancient story book. One that's incredibly badly written I might add.. But it's not even that that bugs me. It's the comment that education is not the answer. What is this guy? A fuckin idiot? Of course education is the answer. Education is the answer to all the worlds ills. Not some dumbass ancient book. Knowledge is what makes the world a better place. It's people like that fuckin idiot that holds the rest of us back from progress.
Education is not the answer? Fuckin troglodyte!
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01-12-2014, 09:51 AM (This post was last modified: 01-12-2014 09:58 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: if they read the gospel...
(01-12-2014 09:40 AM)Chas Wrote:  No, the evidence is quite clear that having a quality education is inversely proportional to having strong religious belief.

Me and my wife, both went to inner city schools, the sort of schools folks like Michael Brown and the looters would have went to. We both went to college, work decent jobs, and live as law abiding citizens.

Many of our peers failed to follow a similar ladder. Some didn't even graduate HS, and other didn't make it past HS. Some ended up in jail. Many live below the poverty line still, though the same educational opportunities existed for all of us.

Why do you think some of us succeeded while others did not, when our education and parents income levels were about the same?

What's missing in the motto of education is the cure, is that the values, the structure, the communities, and moral direction, all have to be in place prior to taking advantage of it. They aren't derived from an education. My education hasn't produced a single moral sense of direction, though it has afforded me career opportunities, and allowed me to have a stable income.
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01-12-2014, 10:02 AM
RE: if they read the gospel...
(01-12-2014 09:51 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(01-12-2014 09:40 AM)Chas Wrote:  No, the evidence is quite clear that having a quality education is inversely proportional to having strong religious belief.

Me and my wife, both went to inner city schools, the sort of schools folks like Michael Brown and the looters would have went to. We both went to college, worked decent jobs, and live as law abiding citizens.

Many of our peers failed to follow a similar ladder. Some didn't even graduate HS, and other didn't make it past HS. Some ended up in jail. Many live below the poverty line still, though the same educational opportunities existed for all of us.

Why do you think some of us succeeded while others did not, when our education and parents income levels were about the same?

What's missing in the motto of education is the cure, is that the values, the structure, the communities, and moral direction, all have to be in place prior to taking advantage of it. They aren't derived from an education. My education hasn't produced a single moral sense of direction, though it has afforded me career opportunities, and allowed me to have a stable income.

And I was educated in suburban schools with good teachers and a rich curriculum, and had parents who valued education.
I certainly received ethical instruction at home and at school from teachers who cared.

But I also received fact-based education, unencumbered by fantasy. Did some students subsequently fail in life? Sure.

You don't know what other children's home life was like or what their families valued. So you don't know that the same opportunities existed for everyone.
If those opportunities aren't valued, they won't be recognized.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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01-12-2014, 10:14 AM
RE: if they read the gospel...
(01-12-2014 10:02 AM)Chas Wrote:  You don't know what other children's home life was like or what their families valued. So you don't know that the same opportunities existed for everyone.
If those opportunities aren't valued, they won't be recognized.

So it's the values that matter then correct? Without children being instilled a proper value system, educational opportunities are somewhat useless?
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01-12-2014, 10:15 AM
RE: if they read the gospel...
(01-12-2014 09:51 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(01-12-2014 09:40 AM)Chas Wrote:  No, the evidence is quite clear that having a quality education is inversely proportional to having strong religious belief.

Me and my wife, both went to inner city schools, the sort of schools folks like Michael Brown and the looters would have went to. We both went to college, work decent jobs, and live as law abiding citizens.

Many of our peers failed to follow a similar ladder. Some didn't even graduate HS, and other didn't make it past HS. Some ended up in jail. Many live below the poverty line still, though the same educational opportunities existed for all of us.

Why do you think some of us succeeded while others did not, when our education and parents income levels were about the same?

What's missing in the motto of education is the cure, is that the values, the structure, the communities, and moral direction, all have to be in place prior to taking advantage of it. They aren't derived from an education. My education hasn't produced a single moral sense of direction, though it has afforded me career opportunities, and allowed me to have a stable income.

You succeeded because some where during your upbringing someone instilled the values of actually getting educated at school and applying yourself. I suspect your parents. I came from a very blue collar family. The kind where dad worked two jobs and mom works from time to time when things got really tight. My parents instilled the value of an education and applying that education.

Getting an education and applying it gives opportunity and stable income. People who have something to loose are less likely to risk it by committing crime. It is not about morals it is about risk vs reward. Only 13% of convicted criminals have better than a high school diploma, according to the Bureau of Justice.
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