if they read the gospel...
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01-12-2014, 10:17 AM
RE: if they read the gospel...
Haha. I don't know this particular football player but does he thank god for touchdowns??

[Image: Football+2.jpg]

One of the most annoying things I see in sports.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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01-12-2014, 10:17 AM
RE: if they read the gospel...
(01-12-2014 10:14 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(01-12-2014 10:02 AM)Chas Wrote:  You don't know what other children's home life was like or what their families valued. So you don't know that the same opportunities existed for everyone.
If those opportunities aren't valued, they won't be recognized.

So it's the values that matter than correct? Without children being instilled a proper value system, educational opportunities are somewhat useless?

No, not useless - where did I say that?
I was countering your attitude that only religion can provide values by pointing out that I got ethical values in a secular environment.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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01-12-2014, 10:18 AM
RE: if they read the gospel...
(01-12-2014 10:14 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(01-12-2014 10:02 AM)Chas Wrote:  You don't know what other children's home life was like or what their families valued. So you don't know that the same opportunities existed for everyone.
If those opportunities aren't valued, they won't be recognized.

So it's the values that matter then correct? Without children being instilled a proper value system, educational opportunities are somewhat useless?

There's a difference between being valued and a system of values.

We have enough youth. How about looking for the Fountain of Smart?
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01-12-2014, 10:33 AM
RE: if they read the gospel...
Benjamin Watson is number 82. A little googling and.....yes, yes he does thank god for touchdowns and exceptional plays because god in on his side.

[Image: 10703845_601385006655301_6619085171834653013_n.jpg]

His opponents, therefore, must be not read the gospels.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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01-12-2014, 10:41 AM
RE: if they read the gospel...
(01-12-2014 10:17 AM)Chas Wrote:  No, not useless - where did I say that?
I was countering your attitude that only religion can provide values by pointing out that I got ethical values in a secular environment.

I'm not arguing that only religion can provide values. I'm just arguing that problem is not one that education can solve, but rather fostering moral values can solve. And that the alternatives for religious communities fostering moral values, is not education. Or in other words the secular alternative to the Gospel, would be something along the lines of the humanist manifesto, fostering humanistic communities, as an alternative to religious ones.

In fact I'd argue that educational institutions attempting to instill moral values in children, are likely to be walking a fine line between separation of church and state.
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01-12-2014, 11:05 AM
RE: if they read the gospel...
(01-12-2014 09:51 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(01-12-2014 09:40 AM)Chas Wrote:  No, the evidence is quite clear that having a quality education is inversely proportional to having strong religious belief.

Me and my wife, both went to inner city schools, the sort of schools folks like Michael Brown and the looters would have went to. We both went to college, work decent jobs, and live as law abiding citizens.

Many of our peers failed to follow a similar ladder. Some didn't even graduate HS, and other didn't make it past HS. Some ended up in jail. Many live below the poverty line still, though the same educational opportunities existed for all of us.

Why do you think some of us succeeded while others did not, when our education and parents income levels were about the same?

What's missing in the motto of education is the cure, is that the values, the structure, the communities, and moral direction, all have to be in place prior to taking advantage of it. They aren't derived from an education. My education hasn't produced a single moral sense of direction, though it has afforded me career opportunities, and allowed me to have a stable income.

let me guess...the defining factor was your faith etc. may i ask, what does religion have to do with the structure, values, and morality? I grew up in a atheist household as a child, both parents were non-believers. we (brother and i) never had problems with values, structure, community and morals. I and my brother never went to a 4 year college, took a few community college courses here and there, and joined an apprenticeship for a skilled trade. now currently, im self employed. so there is my anecdotal true story. values, structure, morals etc are derived from education, many call that type of an education: "the humanities", "a classical education" or dare i say "a liberal arts education". AKA an education that does not get you a job. The church does not have a monopoly on morals, structure values etc.

its similar to "WE THANK GOD FOR FULL RECOVERY,...we also thank the hospital staff for their part
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01-12-2014, 11:10 AM
RE: if they read the gospel...
Education is not just sitting in a classroom. It doesn't have to be structured in any particular way. Many people educate themselves. Education is the assimilation of knowledge and it can certainly lead to higher morals and principals.
I'm an example of this. I often heard the word "nigger" from my father and would repeat but with a little knowledge I understood it was a problem. Facts made me a better person.
I had no problem with calling a guy a "faggot" and when I was 12 I actually beat a guy up because I thought he was gay. I'm not proud of that (In fact I'm so ashamed that I almost didn't write this). But I learned. And it made me a better person.
Not only did knowledge make me a better person, it made me an atheist.
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01-12-2014, 11:12 AM
RE: if they read the gospel...
(01-12-2014 10:41 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(01-12-2014 10:17 AM)Chas Wrote:  No, not useless - where did I say that?
I was countering your attitude that only religion can provide values by pointing out that I got ethical values in a secular environment.

I'm not arguing that only religion can provide values. I'm just arguing that problem is not one that education can solve, but rather fostering moral values can solve. And that the alternatives for religious communities fostering moral values, is not education. Or in other words the secular alternative to the Gospel, would be something along the lines of the humanist manifesto, fostering humanistic communities, as an alternative to religious ones.

In fact I'd argue that educational institutions attempting to instill moral values in children, are likely to be walking a fine line between separation of church and state.

You have an oddly narrow view of education.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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01-12-2014, 11:16 AM
RE: if they read the gospel...
(01-12-2014 09:51 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(01-12-2014 09:40 AM)Chas Wrote:  No, the evidence is quite clear that having a quality education is inversely proportional to having strong religious belief.

Me and my wife, both went to inner city schools, the sort of schools folks like Michael Brown and the looters would have went to. We both went to college, work decent jobs, and live as law abiding citizens.

I'm glad you and your wife turned out okay. Still, you two are anecdotes in a much larger sea of data. The data, in aggregate, says the opposite, and that's what Chas means when he says "the evidence...".
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01-12-2014, 11:29 AM
RE: if they read the gospel...
(01-12-2014 11:12 AM)Chas Wrote:  You have an oddly narrow view of education.

And what is the broad view of education you have in mind?
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