if they read the gospel...
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01-12-2014, 11:35 AM
RE: if they read the gospel...
(01-12-2014 11:16 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(01-12-2014 09:51 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Me and my wife, both went to inner city schools, the sort of schools folks like Michael Brown and the looters would have went to. We both went to college, work decent jobs, and live as law abiding citizens.

I'm glad you and your wife turned out okay. Still, you two are anecdotes in a much larger sea of data. The data, in aggregate, says the opposite, and that's what Chas means when he says "the evidence...".

Come on now. You don't want to muck up a persons preconceived notions with something like evidence do ya? I mean it's not like evidence has ever done anything to make the world a better place...
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01-12-2014, 11:36 AM (This post was last modified: 01-12-2014 11:40 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: if they read the gospel...
(01-12-2014 11:16 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  I'm glad you and your wife turned out okay. Still, you two are anecdotes in a much larger sea of data. The data, in aggregate, says the opposite, and that's what Chas means when he says "the evidence...".

The evidence shows a correlation between education levels and certain other corresponding social health stats. It doesn't actually deal with what fosters certain children to pursue an education in the first place. The problem here is one that confuses cause with correlation.

It should be evident that students who pursue educational opportunities, generally have other stabilizing factors in place prior to doing so.

To see the problem as being one of "education" is one that only confronts the surface of the issues, rather than the underlying wounds, and disorder beneath it.
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01-12-2014, 11:37 AM
RE: if they read the gospel...
(01-12-2014 10:33 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  Benjamin Watson is number 82. A little googling and.....yes, yes he does thank god for touchdowns and exceptional plays because god in on his side.

[Image: 10703845_601385006655301_6619085171834653013_n.jpg]

His opponents, therefore, must be not read the gospels.

I think I'm going to have to add him to my fantasy teams. With God on his side there is no way that we can lose. Wink

Remember, just because you want something to be true, doesn't make it true. Yes, even if you have faith.
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01-12-2014, 11:38 AM
RE: if they read the gospel...
(01-12-2014 11:29 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(01-12-2014 11:12 AM)Chas Wrote:  You have an oddly narrow view of education.

And what is the broad view of education you have in mind?

Education is not confined to formal schooling. It includes information from and interaction with family, friends, and society, and all the books one reads.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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01-12-2014, 11:39 AM
RE: if they read the gospel...
(01-12-2014 07:33 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(01-12-2014 07:30 AM)Chas Wrote:  It's still bullshit. "Sin" is non-existent - it is the invented ill for which the gospel is the invented cure.

This is perhaps a part of the issue, the belief that there is no such thing as "sin", that there is nothing wrong in man's inherent being, that causes him to fall into the grasp of violence and bigotry, and the all the problems arise from external institutions.

So do you believe deceased children/babies go to hell? In particular unbaptized/un-indoctrinated children?

Saints live in flames; wise men, next to them.
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01-12-2014, 11:56 AM
RE: if they read the gospel...
(01-12-2014 11:39 AM)SunnyD1 Wrote:  So do you believe deceased children/babies go to hell? In particular unbaptized/un-indoctrinated children?

I know next to nothing about hell, to share an opinion on who or what goes there.

But I would argue that the concept of "sin" for me holds up even if there was no God, or original act that brought sin into the world. To put it another way, we can call sin our inherent moral failings, our failures to live up to our humanity, our concessions made to hate and ignorance and apathy, to nihilism, rather than to empathy and love and meaning.
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01-12-2014, 12:15 PM
RE: if they read the gospel...
(01-12-2014 10:41 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I'm not arguing that only religion can provide values. I'm just arguing that problem is not one that education can solve, but rather fostering moral values can solve. And that the alternatives for religious communities fostering moral values, is not education. Or in other words the secular alternative to the Gospel, would be something along the lines of the humanist manifesto, fostering humanistic communities, as an alternative to religious ones.

In fact I'd argue that educational institutions attempting to instill moral values in children, are likely to be walking a fine line between separation of church and state.

As stated before me, education encompasses much more than just school. As for a moral values, christianity does give you some moral guidance. Is it the best? Far from it, but it's better than nothing if that is the only alternative, which it's not.

(01-12-2014 07:33 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  This is perhaps a part of the issue, the belief that there is no such thing as "sin", that there is nothing wrong in man's inherent being, that causes him to fall into the grasp of violence and bigotry, and the all the problems arise from external institutions.

People like yourself are why this country is going downhill. You sell people on the idea that they need "Saved" from themselves.

People live in their reality. My reality might be different than yours. Is stealing bad, yes. Would you steal if it were the only way to keep your child from starving to death? Probably.

The fact that you were taught morals that others around you weren't is great for you, but we need fix the system as a whole and make everybody's reality as close as possible to the best reality that we can.

Throw out your Christian morals, and instead ask yourself before every decision you make, "Will this help someone or hurt someone?" If the answer is that it will help someone, do it, if it will hurt someone, don't do it.

You really limit yourself when you get your morals from a book written 2000 years ago based on lies. If there was a god that intervened as is sold in churches, then yes, it would be great t be on his side. Since there is no evidence of this happening, it is foolish to have people think that this is reality. Instead it leaves people worse off than if they weren't taught that.

Remember, just because you want something to be true, doesn't make it true. Yes, even if you have faith.
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01-12-2014, 12:20 PM
RE: if they read the gospel...
(01-12-2014 11:36 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(01-12-2014 11:16 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  I'm glad you and your wife turned out okay. Still, you two are anecdotes in a much larger sea of data. The data, in aggregate, says the opposite, and that's what Chas means when he says "the evidence...".

The evidence shows a correlation between education levels and certain other corresponding social health stats. It doesn't actually deal with what fosters certain children to pursue an education in the first place. The problem here is one that confuses cause with correlation.

It should be evident that students who pursue educational opportunities, generally have other stabilizing factors in place prior to doing so.

To see the problem as being one of "education" is one that only confronts the surface of the issues, rather than the underlying wounds, and disorder beneath it.
You've got backwards my friend.
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01-12-2014, 12:24 PM
RE: if they read the gospel...
(01-12-2014 11:29 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(01-12-2014 11:12 AM)Chas Wrote:  You have an oddly narrow view of education.

And what is the broad view of education you have in mind?

......????? Wow!
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01-12-2014, 12:26 PM
RE: if they read the gospel...
(01-12-2014 12:15 PM)microterf Wrote:  
(01-12-2014 10:41 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I'm not arguing that only religion can provide values. I'm just arguing that problem is not one that education can solve, but rather fostering moral values can solve. And that the alternatives for religious communities fostering moral values, is not education. Or in other words the secular alternative to the Gospel, would be something along the lines of the humanist manifesto, fostering humanistic communities, as an alternative to religious ones.

In fact I'd argue that educational institutions attempting to instill moral values in children, are likely to be walking a fine line between separation of church and state.

As stated before me, education encompasses much more than just school. As for a moral values, christianity does give you some moral guidance. Is it the best? Far from it, but it's better than nothing if that is the only alternative, which it's not.

(01-12-2014 07:33 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  This is perhaps a part of the issue, the belief that there is no such thing as "sin", that there is nothing wrong in man's inherent being, that causes him to fall into the grasp of violence and bigotry, and the all the problems arise from external institutions.

People like yourself are why this country is going downhill. You sell people on the idea that they need "Saved" from themselves.

People live in their reality. My reality might be different than yours. Is stealing bad, yes. Would you steal if it were the only way to keep your child from starving to death? Probably.

The fact that you were taught morals that others around you weren't is great for you, but we need fix the system as a whole and make everybody's reality as close as possible to the best reality that we can.

Throw out your Christian morals, and instead ask yourself before every decision you make, "Will this help someone or hurt someone?" If the answer is that it will help someone, do it, if it will hurt someone, don't do it.

You really limit yourself when you get your morals from a book written 2000 years ago based on lies. If there was a god that intervened as is sold in churches, then yes, it would be great t be on his side. Since there is no evidence of this happening, it is foolish to have people think that this is reality. Instead it leaves people worse off than if they weren't taught that.

My reply to him would be similar to this. Tomasia seems very sadomasochistic.

Saints live in flames; wise men, next to them.
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