igtheism
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18-05-2014, 12:44 PM
RE: igtheism
(18-05-2014 12:21 PM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  It's not his rambling. That entire section, not just part, is taken from:

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/concepts-god/

Nah, it's his post taken as a whole that constitutes rambling. Unelaborated copypasta and at bit of braindead commentary are enough to count as rambling in my book.

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18-05-2014, 12:48 PM
igtheism
I'm not sure he even understands the copypasta. It just looks related, so he pasted it there, and isn't able to expound on why.

Probably because none of the apologetics seeking to unify the philosophical "all good perfectly moral virtuous God" with the God described in the bible don't make any sense, and the only way to support this position is for an apologist to take the passages one at a time, and completely change their concept of God to have the passage show what they want it to.

“It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”
― Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
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18-05-2014, 02:43 PM
RE: igtheism
(18-05-2014 12:48 PM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  I'm not sure he even understands the copypasta. It just looks related, so he pasted it there, and isn't able to expound on why.

Probably because none of the apologetics seeking to unify the philosophical "all good perfectly moral virtuous God" with the God described in the bible don't make any sense, and the only way to support this position is for an apologist to take the passages one at a time, and completely change their concept of God to have the passage show what they want it to.

Referencing material on God's attributes is just a click of the mouse away.

If you would like links, I will provide them for you.
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18-05-2014, 02:44 PM
igtheism
(18-05-2014 02:43 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(18-05-2014 12:48 PM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  I'm not sure he even understands the copypasta. It just looks related, so he pasted it there, and isn't able to expound on why.

Probably because none of the apologetics seeking to unify the philosophical "all good perfectly moral virtuous God" with the God described in the bible don't make any sense, and the only way to support this position is for an apologist to take the passages one at a time, and completely change their concept of God to have the passage show what they want it to.

Referencing material on God's attributes is just a click of the mouse away.

If you would like links, I will provide them for you.

Oh good, you can google someone else's thoughts on the matter and simply link them instead of present them as your own?

After you do this, do you intend to dodge questions about the material with more copy-pasted sources as you have done thus far, or are you capable of discussion?

“It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”
― Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
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18-05-2014, 02:50 PM
RE: igtheism
(18-05-2014 02:44 PM)rampant.a.i. Wrote:  
(18-05-2014 02:43 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  Referencing material on God's attributes is just a click of the mouse away.

If you would like links, I will provide them for you.

Oh good, you can google someone else's thoughts on the matter and simply link them instead of present them as your own?

After you do this, do you intend to dodge questions about the material with more copy-pasted sources as you have done thus far, or are you capable of discussion?

The material I provide speaks for me better than I can. Drinking Beverage
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18-05-2014, 03:27 PM
RE: igtheism
Without the vitriol Jeremy, I was already familiar with what you have posted. As I said, my position is considered. I have been thinking about it for a few months now. It comes from some comments on here ages ago by either Bucky Ball or Chippy, I don't remember and can't recall the thread. I am very familiar with the Stanford Encyclopedia and use it often myself for extended checks and definitions, so I had already seen that.

I disagree with you that a stand alone idea can be dismissed as incorrect because other parts that make the whole are lacking. Igtheism as a stand alone idea seems fine to me, as with most supportable ideas.

Where I am reluctant to label myself Igtheist at the moment, is also in part where we have a point of agreement. I concern myself with feeling it is mentally lazy, or at least counterproductive in regards to open conversation. It strikes me as too early a cut off point.

To be clear with you Jeremy, I think it's a very normal thing for every animal to not want to die. Only with humans we can vocalise it.

I got past this years ago with a simple Occam's Razor test.
1. An undefined diety gave some of us an unexplained desire for eternal life so that we may find him.

Or

2. Our primitive ancestors were so scared of death, with no working knowledge of biology,

Obviously, knowing my position, I opt for option 2. I am comfortable with both facts that I am going to die and I don't want to die. Just because something is comforting for me, doesn't make it true.

I have seen you post a lot about empirical evidence, you quote a lot from many of the resources I use myself but what I don't see from your posts is character and substance. Point me to your evidence, show us some openness. With this copy paiste approach, you're giving me things I have already read. Other people's words! What I am getting at Jeremy is, what makes YOU think how you think? How have you put it all to evidence and what is the evidence? Do you see yourself as different to other Christians that speak to unbelievers, I don't mean this in a rude way, I am asking if you have anything new or unique to bring to the table, or a new perspective on any of it?

Come on, give us something to go on. You're an ex atheist turned Christian. How? Why?

I'll just play the 'can I help you' lick!!!
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18-05-2014, 04:02 PM
RE: igtheism
(18-05-2014 03:27 PM)Monster_Riffs Wrote:  Without the vitriol Jeremy, I was already familiar with what you have posted. As I said, my position is considered. I have been thinking about it for a few months now. It comes from some comments on here ages ago by either Bucky Ball or Chippy, I don't remember and can't recall the thread. I am very familiar with the Stanford Encyclopedia and use it often myself for extended checks and definitions, so I had already seen that.

I disagree with you that a stand alone idea can be dismissed as incorrect because other parts that make the whole are lacking. Igtheism as a stand alone idea seems fine to me, as with most supportable ideas.

Where I am reluctant to label myself Igtheist at the moment, is also in part where we have a point of agreement. I concern myself with feeling it is mentally lazy, or at least counterproductive in regards to open conversation. It strikes me as too early a cut off point.

To be clear with you Jeremy, I think it's a very normal thing for every animal to not want to die. Only with humans we can vocalise it.

I got past this years ago with a simple Occam's Razor test.
1. An undefined diety gave some of us an unexplained desire for eternal life so that we may find him.

Or

2. Our primitive ancestors were so scared of death, with no working knowledge of biology,

Obviously, knowing my position, I opt for option 2. I am comfortable with both facts that I am going to die and I don't want to die. Just because something is comforting for me, doesn't make it true.

I have seen you post a lot about empirical evidence, you quote a lot from many of the resources I use myself but what I don't see from your posts is character and substance. Point me to your evidence, show us some openness. With this copy paiste approach, you're giving me things I have already read. Other people's words! What I am getting at Jeremy is, what makes YOU think how you think? How have you put it all to evidence and what is the evidence? Do you see yourself as different to other Christians that speak to unbelievers, I don't mean this in a rude way, I am asking if you have anything new or unique to bring to the table, or a new perspective on any of it?

Come on, give us something to go on. You're an ex atheist turned Christian. How? Why?

I am an ex atheist turned Christian because I have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

This may not solve your problems or answer your questions.

So be it.

I know I have been changed and I know my Redeemer lives.

There must be a work of God in the heart of a man before he comes to the point where he realizes repentance is the only way forward. When this point is reached, a man cries out and God receives Him as the father received the prodigal son.
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18-05-2014, 04:15 PM
RE: igtheism
(18-05-2014 04:02 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  
(18-05-2014 03:27 PM)Monster_Riffs Wrote:  Without the vitriol Jeremy, I was already familiar with what you have posted. As I said, my position is considered. I have been thinking about it for a few months now. It comes from some comments on here ages ago by either Bucky Ball or Chippy, I don't remember and can't recall the thread. I am very familiar with the Stanford Encyclopedia and use it often myself for extended checks and definitions, so I had already seen that.

I disagree with you that a stand alone idea can be dismissed as incorrect because other parts that make the whole are lacking. Igtheism as a stand alone idea seems fine to me, as with most supportable ideas.

Where I am reluctant to label myself Igtheist at the moment, is also in part where we have a point of agreement. I concern myself with feeling it is mentally lazy, or at least counterproductive in regards to open conversation. It strikes me as too early a cut off point.

To be clear with you Jeremy, I think it's a very normal thing for every animal to not want to die. Only with humans we can vocalise it.

I got past this years ago with a simple Occam's Razor test.
1. An undefined diety gave some of us an unexplained desire for eternal life so that we may find him.

Or

2. Our primitive ancestors were so scared of death, with no working knowledge of biology,

Obviously, knowing my position, I opt for option 2. I am comfortable with both facts that I am going to die and I don't want to die. Just because something is comforting for me, doesn't make it true.

I have seen you post a lot about empirical evidence, you quote a lot from many of the resources I use myself but what I don't see from your posts is character and substance. Point me to your evidence, show us some openness. With this copy paiste approach, you're giving me things I have already read. Other people's words! What I am getting at Jeremy is, what makes YOU think how you think? How have you put it all to evidence and what is the evidence? Do you see yourself as different to other Christians that speak to unbelievers, I don't mean this in a rude way, I am asking if you have anything new or unique to bring to the table, or a new perspective on any of it?

Come on, give us something to go on. You're an ex atheist turned Christian. How? Why?

I am an ex atheist turned Christian because I have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

This may not solve your problems or answer your questions.

So be it.

I know I have been changed and I know my Redeemer lives.

There must be a work of God in the heart of a man before he comes to the point where he realizes repentance is the only way forward. When this point is reached, a man cries out and God receives Him as the father received the prodigal son.

So... Just preaching then. OK, if that's your thing. I'm not angry Jeremy, just disappointed Smile

I'll just play the 'can I help you' lick!!!
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18-05-2014, 04:32 PM
RE: igtheism
(18-05-2014 04:15 PM)Monster_Riffs Wrote:  
(18-05-2014 04:02 PM)Jeremy E Walker Wrote:  I am an ex atheist turned Christian because I have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

This may not solve your problems or answer your questions.

So be it.

I know I have been changed and I know my Redeemer lives.

There must be a work of God in the heart of a man before he comes to the point where he realizes repentance is the only way forward. When this point is reached, a man cries out and God receives Him as the father received the prodigal son.

So... Just preaching then. OK, if that's your thing. I'm not angry Jeremy, just disappointed Smile

Do not set your hope in man for man will fail you. Place your hope in God alone.
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18-05-2014, 04:36 PM
RE: igtheism
There are only two mistakes one can make along the road to truth; not going all the way, and not starting.
Buddha

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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