important things science cant do.
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13-05-2016, 01:10 PM
important things science cant do.
http://bahaiteachings.org/important-thin...ce-cant-do
This was sent to me and I want to get some perspective on this before I reply. I have read it bit I want to keep my opinion so it doesn't influence anyone. Thanks
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13-05-2016, 01:30 PM
RE: important things science cant do.
Quote:Science may provide the most useful way to organize empirical, reproducible data, but its power to do so is predicated on its inability to grasp the most central aspects of human life: hope, fear, love, hate, beauty, envy, honor, weakness, striving, suffering, virtue. – Dr. Paul Kalanithi, When Breath Becomes Air

Science actually understands hope, fear, love, hate, beauty, envy, honor, weakness, striving, suffering and virtue. It's all in the brain. Also, appeal to authority.

Quote:Do you believe in science? Most modern people would answer yes to that question—but even great scientists say that science has its limitations.

What does "believe in" mean here? Have faith in science? Support science? You can't answer that without knowing what they're asking first.

Quote:Peter-MedawarThe Nobel Prize winning scientist and author Sir Peter Medawar explored that thesis in his book The Limits of Science. In it, Medawar made a clear distinction between the scientific realm and the realm of what he called “the transcendent.”

So? Again, appeal to authority, there's no argument here, just baseless assertions.

Quote:We can best answer questions about the structure and organization of the material universe, Medawar concluded, with scientific inquiry. He called science the “most successful human enterprise,” and praised humanity’s scientific achievements, saying that ultimately they have “no limits.”

On the other hand, Medawar wrote, humanity also faces bigger questions, which go far beyond the purview or the scope of science—the subjects that pertain to morality, God, eternity and the purpose of life. Only art, literature, metaphysics and religion can answer those transcendent questions, Medawar concluded.

Citation needed. Also again, appeal to authority and no argument.

Quote:We often call those big transcendent questions “supernatural,” because they exist beyond the known forces and laws of nature. Many science-oriented people say they don’t believe in the supernatural—that they don’t accept anything we can’t scientifically explain—and doubt the existence of the spiritual as a result. They limit their beliefs to only that which can be scientifically proven.

If science could prove anything "supernatural" beyond the forces and laws of nature, we would believe it. It would still be science though.

Quote:But such a limited perspective, the Baha’i teachings say, misses one entire branch of science:

Scientific knowledge is the highest attainment upon the human plane, for science is the discoverer of realities. It is of two kinds: material and spiritual. Material science is the investigation of natural phenomena; divine science is the discovery and realization of spiritual verities. The world of humanity must acquire both. A bird has two wings; it cannot fly with one. Material and spiritual science are the two wings of human uplift and attainment. Both are necessary — one the natural, the other supernatural; one material, the other divine. By the divine we mean the discovery of the mysteries of God, the comprehension of spiritual realities, the wisdom of God, inner significances of the heavenly religions and foundation of the law. – Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 138.

What the fuck is a "Baha'i"? And who the fuck cares? What even is spiritual science? No fucking argument here.

Quote:Science allows us to develop nuclear weapons, for example, but only spiritual science can help us decide whether to use those weapons. Material science can manufacture huge coal-fired power plants, but only divine science can help us deal with the climate change consequences, and decide whether to continue building them. The purely materialist physical sciences cannot make moral or spiritual value judgments—for that we need a divine science:

Nope.
Whether we decide or not to use nuclear weapons is dependent on empathy and morality, with the latter becoming more humane only because of science. This is all a bunch of woo bullshit.

Quote:Material civilization serves the world of men, but the spiritual civilization founds the world of morals. These two kinds of civilization must go hand in hand. The material civilization is like the lamp, but the spiritual civilization is like the light in the lamp. This lamp without the light is a useless thing. Therefore, in our day philosophy and science must go hand in hand with the spiritual civilization. The material civilization is like the body; the spiritual civilization is like the spirit which is the life to the body. So long as the spirit gives life to the body, we behold a living thing, but a body without spirit is dead. It is my desire that ye all may reach the state of spiritual civilization. Like as ye have made great progress in material science, so may ye also progress in the spiritual world. – Abdu’l-Baha, Star of the West, Volume 3, pp. 68-69.

Again, stupid parable-like baseless statements. Yeah, ok, someone said that. So what? Where's the proof for it?

Quote:Baha’is believe in the essential agreement of science and religion—that the two are intertwined with each other and cannot be separated. Abdu’l-Baha said “any religion contrary to science is not the truth.” – Paris Talks, p. 130. In fact, the Baha’i teachings say that material science and divine science must ultimately agree and correspond:

Any religious belief which is not conformable with scientific proof and investigation is superstition, for true science is reason and reality, and religion is essentially reality and pure reason; therefore, the two must correspond. Religious teaching which is at variance with science and reason is human invention and imagination unworthy of acceptance, for the antithesis and opposite of knowledge is superstition born of the ignorance of man. If we say religion is opposed to science, we lack knowledge of either true science or true religion, for both are founded upon the premises and conclusions of reason, and both must bear its test. – Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 104.

Except science proves all religions wrong, so.

"Behind every great pirate, there is a great butt."
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13-05-2016, 01:33 PM
RE: important things science cant do.
(13-05-2016 01:30 PM)undergroundp Wrote:  
Quote:Science may provide the most useful way to organize empirical, reproducible data, but its power to do so is predicated on its inability to grasp the most central aspects of human life: hope, fear, love, hate, beauty, envy, honor, weakness, striving, suffering, virtue. – Dr. Paul Kalanithi, When Breath Becomes Air

Science actually understands hope, fear, love, hate, beauty, envy, honor, weakness, striving, suffering and virtue. It's all in the brain. Also, appeal to authority.

Quote:Do you believe in science? Most modern people would answer yes to that question—but even great scientists say that science has its limitations.

What does "believe in" mean here? Have faith in science? Support science? You can't answer that without knowing what they're asking first.

Quote:Peter-MedawarThe Nobel Prize winning scientist and author Sir Peter Medawar explored that thesis in his book The Limits of Science. In it, Medawar made a clear distinction between the scientific realm and the realm of what he called “the transcendent.”

So? Again, appeal to authority, there's no argument here, just baseless assertions.

Quote:We can best answer questions about the structure and organization of the material universe, Medawar concluded, with scientific inquiry. He called science the “most successful human enterprise,” and praised humanity’s scientific achievements, saying that ultimately they have “no limits.”

On the other hand, Medawar wrote, humanity also faces bigger questions, which go far beyond the purview or the scope of science—the subjects that pertain to morality, God, eternity and the purpose of life. Only art, literature, metaphysics and religion can answer those transcendent questions, Medawar concluded.

Citation needed. Also again, appeal to authority and no argument.

Quote:We often call those big transcendent questions “supernatural,” because they exist beyond the known forces and laws of nature. Many science-oriented people say they don’t believe in the supernatural—that they don’t accept anything we can’t scientifically explain—and doubt the existence of the spiritual as a result. They limit their beliefs to only that which can be scientifically proven.

If science could prove anything "supernatural" beyond the forces and laws of nature, we would believe it. It would still be science though.

Quote:But such a limited perspective, the Baha’i teachings say, misses one entire branch of science:

Scientific knowledge is the highest attainment upon the human plane, for science is the discoverer of realities. It is of two kinds: material and spiritual. Material science is the investigation of natural phenomena; divine science is the discovery and realization of spiritual verities. The world of humanity must acquire both. A bird has two wings; it cannot fly with one. Material and spiritual science are the two wings of human uplift and attainment. Both are necessary — one the natural, the other supernatural; one material, the other divine. By the divine we mean the discovery of the mysteries of God, the comprehension of spiritual realities, the wisdom of God, inner significances of the heavenly religions and foundation of the law. – Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 138.

What the fuck is a "Baha'i"? And who the fuck cares? What even is spiritual science? No fucking argument here.

Quote:Science allows us to develop nuclear weapons, for example, but only spiritual science can help us decide whether to use those weapons. Material science can manufacture huge coal-fired power plants, but only divine science can help us deal with the climate change consequences, and decide whether to continue building them. The purely materialist physical sciences cannot make moral or spiritual value judgments—for that we need a divine science:

Nope.
Whether we decide or not to use nuclear weapons is dependent on empathy and morality, with the latter becoming more humane only because of science. This is all a bunch of woo bullshit.

Quote:Material civilization serves the world of men, but the spiritual civilization founds the world of morals. These two kinds of civilization must go hand in hand. The material civilization is like the lamp, but the spiritual civilization is like the light in the lamp. This lamp without the light is a useless thing. Therefore, in our day philosophy and science must go hand in hand with the spiritual civilization. The material civilization is like the body; the spiritual civilization is like the spirit which is the life to the body. So long as the spirit gives life to the body, we behold a living thing, but a body without spirit is dead. It is my desire that ye all may reach the state of spiritual civilization. Like as ye have made great progress in material science, so may ye also progress in the spiritual world. – Abdu’l-Baha, Star of the West, Volume 3, pp. 68-69.

Again, stupid parable-like baseless statements. Yeah, ok, someone said that. So what? Where's the proof for it?

Quote:Baha’is believe in the essential agreement of science and religion—that the two are intertwined with each other and cannot be separated. Abdu’l-Baha said “any religion contrary to science is not the truth.” – Paris Talks, p. 130. In fact, the Baha’i teachings say that material science and divine science must ultimately agree and correspond:

Any religious belief which is not conformable with scientific proof and investigation is superstition, for true science is reason and reality, and religion is essentially reality and pure reason; therefore, the two must correspond. Religious teaching which is at variance with science and reason is human invention and imagination unworthy of acceptance, for the antithesis and opposite of knowledge is superstition born of the ignorance of man. If we say religion is opposed to science, we lack knowledge of either true science or true religion, for both are founded upon the premises and conclusions of reason, and both must bear its test. – Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 104.

Except science proves all religions wrong, so.

Baba is a faith. They are more forward thinking then most but still have too much woo. I have lots of family I'm this faith. But I will tell you at of all my family they are the sweetest and most helpful along with not looking down at you. I know quite a bit about this faith. Not everything though
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13-05-2016, 01:43 PM
RE: important things science cant do.
All religions pull the same two tactics. They try to debunk science to create a gap they can fill their god and or religious text with. Then when they can't do that, they try to claim science props up their religion and or god. EVERY religion does this.

I have been online debating religion for the past 15 years on an almost daily basis. I have run into not just Christians, although that is mainly what I run into. But also have run into Jews and Muslims and Hindus and Buddhists who try this.

The problem every religion has is that scientific method itself, is a tool, not a religion. It does not prop up the Bible, Jewish OT, Hindu Baghavad Gita or Vedas, nor does it prop up Buddha. Scientific method is completely independent of religion.

But if they are all so sure they respectively got the right club and wright holy writing, then they could all each pick their best scientists, come up with a neutral experiment they all agree on, test and falsify with control groups with that experiment, collect the data, and report back to the rest of the world. Even religious people who accept science to a great degree wont do that, because they all know they have nothing.

Religious people can accept science and many know how to leave religion at the door. But that does not make their god real or any religious club a universal fact.

Our species ability to discover is not a patent owned by one religion, it isn't coming from religion at all. It is coming from our evolutionary ability to seek patterns.

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13-05-2016, 01:45 PM
RE: important things science cant do.
This kind of information is always so sentimental. First of all there are many kinds of science, one of the most important is behavioral science which can improve your life if you suffer from a psychological disorder.

Secondly, evolutionary biologists have been able to track how we became the settled social species that we are, I've even read studies on why we feel awkward around strangers, it's because being a tribal species it was instinctual to feel nervous, afraid and unsettled with a new group we are unfamiliar with, it's for survival.

We have also been able to determine why and how we feel love, hope, honor, fear, etc. Love for example is a biologically positive trait, it allows for groups of people to stick together, babies and children to be raised with care instead of abandoned like some other animals,etc. There are even specific reasons why we have morals, it's beneficial for the continuation of our species to care about others and have empathy, this was a trait that was naturally selected over many thousands of years since only the early humans who were able to get along and work with others were able to procreate while the immoral ones ended up alone, or maybe even killed. Unfortunately some of the negative traits still exist.

There is really nothing about our existence that is truly transcendent, even our emotions are just chemicals in our brains. Any kind of stimulus including words can trigger the effects and cause an emotional reaction, might not sound very romantic or supernatural but that's because it isn't. That doesn't mean we still can't value these parts of our lives, even scientists fall in love and feel pain, they are human after all.

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13-05-2016, 01:54 PM
RE: important things science cant do.
from what I can tell, its one GIANT list of fallacies with no entertainment value let alone any intellectual value
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13-05-2016, 01:55 PM
RE: important things science cant do.
(13-05-2016 01:45 PM)SitaSky Wrote:  This kind of information is always so sentimental. First of all there are many kinds of science, one of the most important is behavioral science which can improve your life if you suffer from a psychological disorder.

Secondly, evolutionary biologists have been able to track how we became the settled social species that we are, I've even read studies on why we feel awkward around strangers, it's because being a tribal species it was instinctual to feel nervous, afraid and unsettled with a new group we are unfamiliar with, it's for survival.

We have also been able to determine why and how we feel love, hope, honor, fear, etc. Love for example is a biologically positive trait, it allows for groups of people to stick together, babies and children to be raised with care instead of abandoned like some other animals,etc. There are even specific reasons why we have morals, it's beneficial for the continuation of our species to care about others and have empathy, this was a trait that was naturally selected over many thousands of years since only the early humans who were able to get along and work with others were able to procreate while the immoral ones ended up alone, or maybe even killed. Unfortunately some of the negative traits still exist.

There is really nothing about our existence that is truly transcendent, even our emotions are just chemicals in our brains. Any kind of stimulus including words can trigger the effects and cause an emotional reaction, might not sound very romantic or supernatural but that's because it isn't. That doesn't mean we still can't value these parts of our lives, even scientists fall in love and feel pain, they are human after all.

I really hate when scientist use "God" as a metaphor, laypeople stupidly take that as a god being possible. "God particle" or "God gene" I hate that shit.

The truth is that all religions are made up. Most humans end up getting indoctrinated at birth to the majority religion of the societies they live in. Religion is nothing more than the excuse humans make to set up social order. It does provide comfort, and safety in numbers, but it its still based on very false perception.

NO, you cant force any religion out of existence without becoming a monster yourself. But knowing that our planet has had 5 mass extinctions, knowing that our sun is only one of billions in our galaxy, knowing that our universe has 100s of billions of galaxies in a 98% empty universe, it is quite obvious there is no magic sky wizard or religious writing that is a magic pill. Humans are not the center of the planet or universe All we have is each other.

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13-05-2016, 01:59 PM
RE: important things science cant do.
Yep same things that was going through my mind. And it implies that without god we have no morals. I need to stop and calm down a bit before I reply to my aunt.
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13-05-2016, 02:01 PM
RE: important things science cant do.
"Any religious belief which is not conformable with scientific proof and investigation is superstition, for true science is reason and reality, and religion is essentially reality and pure reason; therefore, the two must correspond. Religious teaching which is at variance with science and reason is human invention and imagination unworthy of acceptance, for the antithesis and opposite of knowledge is superstition born of the ignorance of man. If we say religion is opposed to science, we lack knowledge of either true science or true religion, for both are founded upon the premises and conclusions of reason, and both must bear its test." – Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 104.

Sounds like religion trying to hitch a ride on science's coat tails. Kinda clever.

#sigh
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13-05-2016, 02:44 PM
RE: important things science cant do.
A bird flies using two natural wings. There are no supernatural wings. They can't show me a bird flying perfectly well with one natural wing and another non-existent wing. Non-existent wings cannot interact with the air or the birds body.

They are trying to insert religion as a necessary part of life, but it's not. It's the imaginary mental fantasies added to observed reality.

There is no spiritual science. It's just science.

Science can measure the harm that certain actions can bring. Morality deals with the consideration of the consequences of our actions. We make moral decisions based on the science of how much our actions will harm or help a situation. We can gather factual data and make moral decisions. All of those facts are science based. There are no spiritual facts.

Basically, the questions science can't currently answer, no religion can answer either.

Religion can't measure. It can't weigh. It can't test.
It can't explain how something does something.
All it does is invent an imaginary character who can do anything, but this imaginary character can't explain anything.

So in the end, you still don't have an answer.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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