in the defense of the theists...
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10-01-2011, 12:18 AM
in the defense of the theists...
Well, I guess this is the best way to put it:

Debate Topic: Origin of the Universe

Atheist: What do you think is the Origin of the Universe?
Theist: Well, I think Cthulhu created the universe
Atheist: Ha, well, where did Cthulhu come from?

See, all the atheist did there was move the goal post. Replace Cthulhu with "God" and you get just about every debate about the origin of the universe between an atheist and a theist. The debate isn't about the origin of God, it's about the origin of the universe.

Just my way of trying to make sure both sides of the debate are represented Big Grin

Fight the system,

~~~but don't mute the opposition!~~~
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10-01-2011, 02:14 AM
RE: in the defense of the theists...
This really isn't a case of moving the goal posts so much as just pointing out where the posts really were all along.

Sorry but I just don't think most Theists even get what we are really asking with such a question.
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10-01-2011, 07:48 AM
RE: in the defense of the theists...
Typically in the bigger scheme of the debate, it's the theist who asks that question, trying to claim that since you can't go back in the line of causes and effect infinitely, there had to be a first cause. That first cause was god. It is usually at that point that the atheist turns the table by asking who made the universe(to which the theist insists is their specific god, in this case Cthulhu), and asks how [insert preferred god here] came to exist? It is a way of demonstrating that plopping god in the mix doesn't even really answer the question, since if they claim something can be eternal/uncreated(god), why can't the universe?

I don't believe Jesus is the son of God until I see the long form birth certificate!
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10-01-2011, 08:25 PM
RE: in the defense of the theists...
I don't see how this defends theists...
I don't really see how you can defend theists actually.
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11-01-2011, 07:03 AM
 
RE: in the defense of the theists...
I believe there is much more to the Big Bang theory then what scientists can currently understand, and for theists to say a Biblical type God created it is like telling your kids that Santa puts presents under the tree...

Maybe someday (hundreds of years from now?) we'll have a greater understanding of quantum physics (something I know nothing about), more powerful telescopes and means of exploring the universe in order to find answers. Right now the whole topic is all just "he said/she said" and I personally do not have a believe either religiously or scientifically as to how reality came into existence. Perhaps it's in a different Multi-verse?
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11-01-2011, 03:00 PM
RE: in the defense of the theists...
(10-01-2011 02:14 AM)Godless Wrote:  This really isn't a case of moving the goal posts so much as just pointing out where the posts really were all along.

elaborate

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~~~but don't mute the opposition!~~~
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12-01-2011, 09:38 AM
RE: in the defense of the theists...
There IS a chance (however virtually 0) that God was present at the big bang or even caused it. But even if you assume THAT do you really think he will be bothered by something futile as poring water over a baby or snipping off a foreskin (autch!). Even if something god-like caused the big bang, he might not even know we are here. (I am thinking among the lines of TED, the clumsy beer-brewing alien who caused the big bang in the videos)

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Agnostic atheist
Secular humanist
Emotional rationalist
Disclaimer: Don’t mix the personal opinion above with the absolute and objective truth. Remember to think for yourself. Thank you.
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12-01-2011, 04:58 PM
RE: in the defense of the theists...
We are not talking about any specific god here. What makes you think the God we are talking about is bothered by circumcision and pouring water over a baby?

Fight the system,

~~~but don't mute the opposition!~~~
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12-01-2011, 09:46 PM
RE: in the defense of the theists...
(10-01-2011 12:18 AM)latvianxave8 Wrote:  Well, I guess this is the best way to put it:

Debate Topic: Origin of the Universe

Atheist: What do you think is the Origin of the Universe?
Theist: Well, I think Cthulhu created the universe
Atheist: Ha, well, where did Cthulhu come from?

See, all the atheist did there was move the goal post. Replace Cthulhu with "God" and you get just about every debate about the origin of the universe between an atheist and a theist. The debate isn't about the origin of God, it's about the origin of the universe.

Just my way of trying to make sure both sides of the debate are represented Big Grin

Actually, more like this:

Debate Topic: Origin of the Universe

Atheist: What do you think is the Origin of the Universe?
Theist: Well, I think Cthulhu created the universe
Atheist: What makes you come to that conclusion? Any evidence?
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12-01-2011, 11:08 PM
RE: in the defense of the theists...
I agree with sosa.

As far as an unspecific god (like a deistic god) it is what we call an unfalsifiable hypothesis, so there is no use debating it because you can not prove them wrong any more than they can prove themselves right. HOWEVER, in the terms of a specific God (Yahweh for my example) it is highly questionable, debatable, and defeatable (you can defeat the existence of Yahweh even if the theist disagress, most Atheists in the developed world tend to start with Yahweh, because he is both popular, and fairly easy to disprove).
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