interested in the atheist perspective
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26-11-2014, 10:43 PM
RE: interested in the atheist perspective
Always thought this was the best and simplest example of why the fine tuning argument fails:

“Imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, ‘This is an interesting world I find myself in, an interesting hole I find myself in, fits me rather neatly, doesn’t it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!’ This is such a powerful idea that as the sun rises in the sky and the air heats up and as, gradually, the puddle gets smaller and smaller, it’s still frantically hanging on to the notion that everything’s going to be alright, because this world was meant to have him in it, was built to have him in it; so the moment he disappears catches him rather by surprise. I think this may be something we need to be on the watch out for."

-Douglas Adams

We are exactly as we are because of the shape and nature of the "hole" that is our universe. If the hole was different, we wouldn't "be" here as we are at all. No intellect is needed to design the hole, it just needs to exist.

It does, and here we are. Everything else is simply speculation about why, which cannot be answered as of yet.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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26-11-2014, 11:14 PM
RE: interested in the atheist perspective
(26-11-2014 03:48 AM)Switz5678 Wrote:  So I have a few questions rumbling around, and if any of you feel obliged i'm interested in your input. These questions are all over the place, but hell you guys talk about a lot and i assume that means you think about a lot.. Perhaps your perspective on concepts/ideas will help me!

I'm not sure what exactly is meant to be implied when one claims to be an atheist?

What is your response to vacuum energy and the argument for a fine tuner?

--These next few are more so science/math questions.--

Two objects in an otherwise empty space move away from each other. They move at the velocity of .5C along the same line, but in opposite directions. Both are equipped with an atomic clock.. How does time work in this situation?


With math we often use equations to express evolving systems over some time period. We label time as an independent variable, and the output of the system a dependent variable.. Could it be possible that in reality we have an evolving time over some system period? Would we be able to discern a difference?

- I might not have explained this in a way that makes sense. I'll try to give an example to be more clear. Take a simple position equation with respect to time

Y=vt

instead of position of said system being determined by time evolution.. Could it be time that is being determined by some position evolution? I guess my thoughts on this are despite time/change-in-time things have a position, and it has an actual meaning, but when there is not position change time in essence has no meaning. I don't know.. crazy.. stupid.. or both i guess.
----

Mod I'm sorry if this is in the wrong place!

My response to vacuum energy is the same response I might give about the blender in my kitchen.
It exists. Did you have a specific question ?

Fine tuning
Ever notice how grass is fine tuned to grow in the cracks of the sidewalk and you never find it growing in concrete. It must be fine tuned.

This universe is the crack in the sidewalk

Two objects of like mass and material moving at .5c away from each other or in the same direction or any directional angle whatsoever will be operating under the same relativistic time.

That means if these two objects are identical sticks of dynamite with lit fuses, they will explode at the same distance away from a given point at the same time.

Did you have a question about relative time references?

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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27-11-2014, 05:03 AM
RE: interested in the atheist perspective
The relativity question has been asked here: http://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comme...ach_other/

The top answer is:
Quote:Let's answer this question two ways. First, let's set up the question differently. Imagine a space station, with two space ships. The space ships then leave the space station, moving 0.5c with respect to the space station. The question is: what does someone on the space station see, and what does someone on the space ship see?
Well, someone on the space station has it easy. He will simply see the ships separating at 1c, as each are leaving away from him at 0.5c. This is not a problem, since he is not seeing any single massive object leaving at a speed greater than c. I understand that this part might be obvious, but it gives us a reference point.
Now, what does someone on a spaceship see? Well, they will see the other space ship moving away at 0.8c. This can be calculated using the relativistic velocity-addition formula. Where does this come from? Well, as Einstein showed, the speed of light is the same in all reference frames. There are several consequences of this- the ones being important here are time dilation and length contraction. What this means is, a person on the space ship and a person on the space station will not measure time or distances the same way. The person on the space ship will have his clock running slower, and will measure distances shorter, than the person on the space station. So, he is measuring that the second ship is closer to him, and it took a different amount of time to get there, and thus will measure his speed to be less than the speed of light.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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27-11-2014, 10:46 AM
RE: interested in the atheist perspective
Quote:If we live in a universe that seems fine-tuned for life

The overwhelming majority of the universe would kill you in a heartbeat. In fact, 70% of this planet is ocean which wouldn't do you much good either.

Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
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27-11-2014, 01:01 PM
RE: interested in the atheist perspective
(27-11-2014 10:46 AM)Minimalist Wrote:  
Quote:If we live in a universe that seems fine-tuned for life

The overwhelming majority of the universe would kill you in a heartbeat. In fact, 70% of this planet is ocean which wouldn't do you much good either.

The fraction of the known universe suitable for human life is so vanishingly tiny as to be utterly insignificant in every imaginable way. It amounts to a small part of the minority land surface of a single planet of tens in a single system of millions of a single galaxy of billions, composed of baryonic matter comprising at best 5% of observable interaction.

Cosmic narcissism; that's all it is. Incomprehensible self-importance and an utter inability to think outside one's own self.

"But the universe is complicated and therefore unlikely, therefore GAAAWD", our woebegotten conversational partner might say. To which the answer is a), we don't know the odds, creation of universes being somewhat outside the bounds of our current study, and b), vanishingly unlikely shit happens all the time - I can spend one measly hour flipping coins and the sequence I produce will be one in a trillion trillion trillion.

It seems to me an act of pathological insanity to gaze at the infinite cosmos and declare,
"Yes. This is all for me."

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27-11-2014, 01:16 PM
RE: interested in the atheist perspective
(27-11-2014 01:01 PM)cjlr Wrote:  The fraction of the known universe suitable for human life is so vanishingly tiny as to be utterly insignificant in every imaginable way. It amounts to a small part of the minority land surface of a single planet of tens in a single system of millions of a single galaxy of billions, composed of baryonic matter comprising at best 5% of observable interaction.

Cosmic narcissism; that's all it is. Incomprehensible self-importance and an utter inability to think outside one's own self.

"But the universe is complicated and therefore unlikely, therefore GAAAWD", our woebegotten conversational partner might say. To which the answer is a), we don't know the odds, creation of universes being somewhat outside the bounds of our current study, and b), vanishingly unlikely shit happens all the time - I can spend one measly hour flipping coins and the sequence I produce will be one in a trillion trillion trillion.

It seems to me an act of pathological insanity to gaze at the infinite cosmos and declare,
"Yes. This is all for me."

Seriously, write a book. Please?

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-Guybrush Threepwood-
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27-11-2014, 02:07 PM
RE: interested in the atheist perspective
Just... don't abuse italics and bold. Tongue

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Life is a flash of light between two eternities of darkness.
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27-11-2014, 02:09 PM
RE: interested in the atheist perspective
(27-11-2014 02:07 PM)The Polyglot Atheist Wrote:  Just... don't abuse italics and bold. Tongue

Says the man using an emoticon.

The register of forum posts is closer to spoken vernacular than anything else; thus, the typographical emphasis where vocal stress would otherwise fall.

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27-11-2014, 02:17 PM
RE: interested in the atheist perspective
(27-11-2014 01:01 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(27-11-2014 10:46 AM)Minimalist Wrote:  The overwhelming majority of the universe would kill you in a heartbeat. In fact, 70% of this planet is ocean which wouldn't do you much good either.

The fraction of the known universe suitable for human life is so vanishingly tiny as to be utterly insignificant in every imaginable way. It amounts to a small part of the minority land surface of a single planet of tens in a single system of millions of a single galaxy of billions, composed of baryonic matter comprising at best 5% of observable interaction.

Cosmic narcissism; that's all it is. Incomprehensible self-importance and an utter inability to think outside one's own self.

"But the universe is complicated and therefore unlikely, therefore GAAAWD", our woebegotten conversational partner might say. To which the answer is a), we don't know the odds, creation of universes being somewhat outside the bounds of our current study, and b), vanishingly unlikely shit happens all the time - I can spend one measly hour flipping coins and the sequence I produce will be one in a trillion trillion trillion.

It seems to me an act of pathological insanity to gaze at the infinite cosmos and declare,
"Yes. This is all for me."
I like the way that Baron d'Holbach put it back in 1770:

"Suns are extinguished or become corrupted, planets perish and scatter across the wastes of the sky; other suns are kindled, new planets formed to make their revolutions or describe new orbits, and man, an infinitely minute part of a globe which itself is only an imperceptible point in the immense whole, believes that the universe is made for himself."

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27-11-2014, 02:22 PM
RE: interested in the atheist perspective
(27-11-2014 02:17 PM)Vosur Wrote:  I like the way that Baron d'Holbach put it back in 1770:

"Suns are extinguished or become corrupted, planets perish and scatter across the wastes of the sky; other suns are kindled, new planets formed to make their revolutions or describe new orbits, and man, an infinitely minute part of a globe which itself is only an imperceptible point in the immense whole, believes that the universe is made for himself."

Well; quite.

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