interested in the atheist perspective
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30-11-2014, 02:18 AM
RE: interested in the atheist perspective
(27-11-2014 04:57 PM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  
(26-11-2014 05:36 PM)Switz5678 Wrote:  ........ A fine tuner stance is simple. At some point something interacted with what we call this Universe. This interaction placed a set of values on important interaction outcomes that allowed the formation of the Universe as we know it.

This is interesting. So, assuming your hypothesis is okay.

That still puts your designer 13 Billion years away from us in the past.

So... how or where then is the interaction AFTER the big kick off? Consider

Much cheers to all.

I'll tell you what I picture. I don't believe this to be true, but it is something that I envision as possible. NO PROOF what-so-ever so allow me this fairy tale

We are a 2 dimensional universe. We have the illusions of 3 dimensions, but in reality we are flat. Fine tuner can interact and pass through the Universe instantly because we have no width. Perhaps we are a science project, perhaps we are a highly evolved specimen's version of an ant farm. IDK

There is some support for 3 dimensions being an illusion. Obviously the rest is just a product of a fancy imagination.
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30-11-2014, 02:28 AM
RE: interested in the atheist perspective
(30-11-2014 02:18 AM)Switz5678 Wrote:  I'll tell you what I picture. I don't believe this to be true, but it is something that I envision as possible. NO PROOF what-so-ever so allow me this fairy tale

We are a 2 dimensional universe. We have the illusions of 3 dimensions, but in reality we are flat. Fine tuner can interact and pass through the Universe instantly because we have no width. Perhaps we are a science project, perhaps we are a highly evolved specimen's version of an ant farm. IDK

There is some support for 3 dimensions being an illusion. Obviously the rest is just a product of a fancy imagination.

*Nods* Right... so this being/creature with 'more' dimensions can thence effectively pas through our limited 4 dimensions with ease...

..... And we should think this non-euclidean being is beneficial, why?

Much cheers to all.
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30-11-2014, 02:35 AM
RE: interested in the atheist perspective
(27-11-2014 01:01 PM)cjlr Wrote:  The fraction of the known universe suitable for human life is so vanishingly tiny as to be utterly insignificant in every imaginable way. It amounts to a small part of the minority land surface of a single planet of tens in a single system of millions of a single galaxy of billions, composed of baryonic matter comprising at best 5% of observable interaction.

Cosmic narcissism; that's all it is. Incomprehensible self-importance and an utter inability to think outside one's own self.

"But the universe is complicated and therefore unlikely, therefore GAAAWD", our woebegotten conversational partner might say. To which the answer is a), we don't know the odds, creation of universes being somewhat outside the bounds of our current study, and b), vanishingly unlikely shit happens all the time - I can spend one measly hour flipping coins and the sequence I produce will be one in a trillion trillion trillion.

It seems to me an act of pathological insanity to gaze at the infinite cosmos and declare,
"Yes. This is all for me."

Why we are supposing that A fine tuner would want there to be many places for humans to inhabit?Perhaps Humans are just an unintended consequence. What you have done is created a Strawman, and proceeded to defeat it.

"b), vanishingly unlikely shit happens all the time - I can spend one measly hour flipping coins and the sequence I produce will be one in a trillion trillion trillion."

It is not unlikely for you to flip a coin for an hour and get a sequence. What would be unlikely is for you to do it again and get the same sequence. I don't understand your logic..
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30-11-2014, 02:37 AM (This post was last modified: 30-11-2014 02:41 AM by Switz5678.)
RE: interested in the atheist perspective
(30-11-2014 02:28 AM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  *Nods* Right... so this being/creature with 'more' dimensions can thence effectively pas through our limited 4 dimensions with ease...

..... And we should think this non-euclidean being is beneficial, why?

Much cheers to all.

We should not think the being is beneficial to us long term. This does not mean this being loves us or will provide us an eternity of bliss post death. The only reason that I would say that a being like this has been beneficial is that we are here to talk about it
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30-11-2014, 02:43 AM (This post was last modified: 30-11-2014 02:52 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: interested in the atheist perspective
(30-11-2014 02:35 AM)Switz5678 Wrote:  Why we are supposing that A fine tuner would want there to be many places for humans to inhabit?Perhaps Humans are just an unintended consequence. What you have done is created a Strawman, and proceeded to defeat it.

Fine-tuning is proposed almost exclusively by those arguing for their fine-tuner, a way to crowbar their god belief into modernity. So what reason is there to presuppose a fine-tuner unless you have a vested interest in defending a indefensible belief in the supernatural? Even assuming that a universe has variables that can be fine-tuned, why propose it is anything else other than natural chance? Unless you have evidence for a fine-tuner, who are you to debate on what it's motives and desires may or may not be? Clearly the universe is not fine tuned to create life bearing worlds, as it's far more evidently conducive to making stars and black holes; but we don't see too many religions worshiping either of those.

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30-11-2014, 02:45 AM
RE: interested in the atheist perspective
(30-11-2014 02:37 AM)Switz5678 Wrote:  We should not think the being is beneficial to us long term.

(30-11-2014 02:37 AM)Switz5678 Wrote:  This does not mean this being loves us or will provide us an eternity of bliss post death. The only reason that I would say that a being like this has been beneficial is that we are here to talk about it

Okay.... then, in regards to the above posts.

If it's not beneficial... heck, even if its benign in its ignorance of us, why even bother with it?

Also, why then now should there be only one of these creatures?

Can you not see the rabbit hole down which your thoughts are descending?

Much cheers to all.
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30-11-2014, 02:47 AM
RE: interested in the atheist perspective
(30-11-2014 02:43 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  ....... But we don't see too many religions worshiping either of those.

But we have seen faiths worshiping the Sun, so there is that. Wink

Given enough time and humanity spreading beyond the cradle of its planet... I can see some small group setting up shop and deciding that worshiping the biggest black hole they can find might actually happen. Consider

Much cheers to all.
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30-11-2014, 02:48 AM
RE: interested in the atheist perspective
(30-11-2014 02:35 AM)Switz5678 Wrote:  It is not unlikely for you to flip a coin for an hour and get a sequence. What would be unlikely is for you to do it again and get the same sequence. I don't understand your logic..

On a large enough scale, like the universe, rare things happen all the time. Supernova are rare, requiring a precise set of circumstances; but even we detect and catalog hundreds of them every year from just the tiny fraction of the night sky we are able to observe. The universe is so vast, that something a rare as a supernova, hypernova, or even a gamma-ray burst happen with alarming regularity.

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30-11-2014, 02:50 AM
RE: interested in the atheist perspective
(30-11-2014 02:47 AM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  
(30-11-2014 02:43 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  ....... But we don't see too many religions worshiping either of those.

But we have seen faiths worshiping the Sun, so there is that. Wink

But also to be fair, I can't think of a single one that also realized that the other stars were the same as the Sun.

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30-11-2014, 02:52 AM
RE: interested in the atheist perspective
(30-11-2014 02:12 AM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  I'm pretty sure that time is not effected by observation (Though the clock sure does seem to run backwards the closer one gets towards knock off time. Tongue)

The double slit experiment is in regards to what electrons are doing/going through.... Not time, per-say.

Now... is relativity and hence time effected by gravity/velocity? Yes, we've verifiable proof of such things.

What that actually means though, is possibly something else again.

Much cheers to all.

Yeah, I hear ya.

Sometimes I just wonder that if we weren't observing 'a time' that it wouldn't be determined. I watched a video of how they put one atomic clock on an airplane, and the other on the ground and showed a time deviation. I was left with the question of would it do the same without observation? They have probably tested this.. I just haven't seen anything about it.

I used to think that time was nothing but a tool that humans use to understand complex motion. I mean without motion what meaning does time have really? Later on I saw another youtube video on space-time and mind is blown. Consider
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