isaiah 37, 2 kings 19.
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17-11-2014, 09:43 AM
RE: isaiah 37, 2 kings 19.
(13-11-2014 04:23 PM)JonDarbyXIII Wrote:  
(13-11-2014 02:39 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Are you all familiar with the argument that real eyewitness and/or faithful chroniclers of history should have mostly similar accounts recorded, neither widely diverging nor word-for-word identical? Wouldn't that be the logical output of eyewitnesses or scribes? Aren't cops and prosecutors made suspicious when witnesses don't merely corroborate evidence but give identical testimonies?

I have heard Christians give that exact line of reasoning to explain away contradictions, especially in the gospel accounts--"If they were the same word for word, then that would be a problem." Well guess what, there is a lot in the Bible that is copied word for word. Do Christians agree that is a problem?

I can speak for myself here--it's not a problem if OT scribes copied information--they were the antecedent to modern historians and librarians.

Now that I've answered your question, perhaps you'll answer mine? Why is or isn't it sound reasoning to conclude that different eyewitnesses would report events somewhat differently?

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17-11-2014, 10:10 AM
RE: isaiah 37, 2 kings 19.
(17-11-2014 09:43 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I can speak for myself here--it's not a problem if OT scribes copied information--they were the antecedent to modern historians and librarians.

Now that I've answered your question, perhaps you'll answer mine? Why is or isn't it sound reasoning to conclude that different eyewitnesses would report events somewhat differently?

I agree that these are generally criteria for more reliable testimonies, and yes, it is exactly what is used in police investigations. However, I still don't understand your point that this is ok if the info was copied by scribes. There are pslams which are identical; large portions of Chronicles and Kings are the exact same, verbatim. In your words, the criterion is that the testimonies not be 'word-for-word.' So how is it not a problem when they are?

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17-11-2014, 10:33 AM
RE: isaiah 37, 2 kings 19.
(12-11-2014 11:15 AM)microterf Wrote:  I was wondering if any of you have ever used those bible verses in a debate and gotten any kind of legitimate response as they are exactly the same but ~120 years apart.

Seems to me it throws a really big wrench in the argument for the consistency of the bible over the time it was written and variety of authors, as it was clearly copied.

microterf,
You've only just scratched the surface. The Bible is full of these duplicate passages. They are called deuterographs. Here's just a few examples that I posted elsewhere:
1. Psalm 14 is identical to Psalm 53
2. 2 Chronicles 36:22-23 is indistinguishable from Ezra 1:1-3
3. Psalm 40:13-17 is essentially identical to the short Psalm 70
4. Psalm 57:7-11 is the same as Psalm 108:1-5
5. Psalm 60:5-12 is the same as Psalm 108:6-13. In other words, Psalm 108 is composed of fragments of two other existing Psalms (see no. 4).
6. Proverbs 14:12 is identical to Proverbs 16:25
7. Proverbs 18:8 is identical to Proverbs 26:2
8. Proverbs 19:25 is essentially identical to Proverbs 21:11
9. 2 Kings 18:13-20:11 is essentially identical to Isaiah 36-38:8
10. 2 Kings 25:27-30 is identical to Jeremiah 52:31-34

One of the first objections I had to the Bible was the waste of "real estate" in the Bible caused by the needless duplication of useless information. Why not take up some of the valuable space by inserting useful information like:
"Slavery is prohibited"
"Rape is prohibited"
"Women are to be given the same rights as men"

Doc
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17-11-2014, 01:52 PM
RE: isaiah 37, 2 kings 19.
The Bible says that in the mouth of two or more witnesses, a thing is established.

Since Psalm 14 and 53 may be referring to atheism, check 'em out!

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17-11-2014, 01:54 PM
RE: isaiah 37, 2 kings 19.
(17-11-2014 10:33 AM)docskeptic Wrote:  
(12-11-2014 11:15 AM)microterf Wrote:  I was wondering if any of you have ever used those bible verses in a debate and gotten any kind of legitimate response as they are exactly the same but ~120 years apart.

Seems to me it throws a really big wrench in the argument for the consistency of the bible over the time it was written and variety of authors, as it was clearly copied.

microterf,
You've only just scratched the surface. The Bible is full of these duplicate passages. They are called deuterographs. Here's just a few examples that I posted elsewhere:
1. Psalm 14 is identical to Psalm 53
2. 2 Chronicles 36:22-23 is indistinguishable from Ezra 1:1-3
3. Psalm 40:13-17 is essentially identical to the short Psalm 70
4. Psalm 57:7-11 is the same as Psalm 108:1-5
5. Psalm 60:5-12 is the same as Psalm 108:6-13. In other words, Psalm 108 is composed of fragments of two other existing Psalms (see no. 4).
6. Proverbs 14:12 is identical to Proverbs 16:25
7. Proverbs 18:8 is identical to Proverbs 26:2
8. Proverbs 19:25 is essentially identical to Proverbs 21:11
9. 2 Kings 18:13-20:11 is essentially identical to Isaiah 36-38:8
10. 2 Kings 25:27-30 is identical to Jeremiah 52:31-34

One of the first objections I had to the Bible was the waste of "real estate" in the Bible caused by the needless duplication of useless information. Why not take up some of the valuable space by inserting useful information like:
"Slavery is prohibited"
"Rape is prohibited"
"Women are to be given the same rights as men"

Doc

I am familiar with some of the Bible's deuterographs. If you are claiming they invalidate the scriptures as honest testimony, I would ask if you would accept the scriptures as honest testimony if they contained no deuterographs?

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17-11-2014, 03:45 PM (This post was last modified: 17-11-2014 03:49 PM by docskeptic.)
RE: isaiah 37, 2 kings 19.
Microterf,
It gets even funnier. Earlier I said that 2 Chronicles 36:22-23 is identical to Ezra 1:1-3. Now, the Chronicles portion represents the end of that book while the Ezra portion represents the beginning of that book. It appears that some sleepy scribe grafted the beginning of Ezra onto the end of 2 Chronicles many moons ago and the error escaped detection. This editing error has been received as scripture by the faithful who are often not even aware of the duplication even though the portions are literally side by side!

Doc
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17-11-2014, 06:16 PM
RE: isaiah 37, 2 kings 19.
(17-11-2014 01:54 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I am familiar with some of the Bible's deuterographs. If you are claiming they invalidate the scriptures as honest testimony, I would ask if you would accept the scriptures as honest testimony if they contained no deuterographs?

It's not that it would make the scriptures honest testimony if they contained no deuterographs, it is the selling point that is the problem. I have heard from 2 different pastors one of the best ways you know the bible is the word of god is because of how spread out the books are, yet how well they go together. If you have deuterographs, that kills the argument.

I'll use the argument that 40 of us on this site write 66 short stories, we all say are inspired by the flying spaghetti monster, we are all in different parts of the world. We upload these stories to a forum thread, and tell you this is the word of FSM, you must read this and obey it. At first you might be impressed when they all went together, but when you see that Joe and I have the exact same story written word for word, you're going to suspect collusion. I would imagine to the point that you stop worshiping the FSM, and don't trust anything we right again that is "inspired."

Remember, just because you want something to be true, doesn't make it true. Yes, even if you have faith.
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17-11-2014, 06:22 PM
RE: isaiah 37, 2 kings 19.
https://archive.org/stream/deuterographs...0/mode/2up

Wow, I didn't realize there were so many that there is a book on this!?

Remember, just because you want something to be true, doesn't make it true. Yes, even if you have faith.
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18-11-2014, 01:23 PM
RE: isaiah 37, 2 kings 19.
(17-11-2014 06:16 PM)microterf Wrote:  
(17-11-2014 01:54 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I am familiar with some of the Bible's deuterographs. If you are claiming they invalidate the scriptures as honest testimony, I would ask if you would accept the scriptures as honest testimony if they contained no deuterographs?

It's not that it would make the scriptures honest testimony if they contained no deuterographs, it is the selling point that is the problem. I have heard from 2 different pastors one of the best ways you know the bible is the word of god is because of how spread out the books are, yet how well they go together. If you have deuterographs, that kills the argument.

I'll use the argument that 40 of us on this site write 66 short stories, we all say are inspired by the flying spaghetti monster, we are all in different parts of the world. We upload these stories to a forum thread, and tell you this is the word of FSM, you must read this and obey it. At first you might be impressed when they all went together, but when you see that Joe and I have the exact same story written word for word, you're going to suspect collusion. I would imagine to the point that you stop worshiping the FSM, and don't trust anything we right again that is "inspired."

Are you implying the FSM lacks the ability to give two of his adherents the same revelation, word for word? Is he that tepid? Well, he's not al dente, then, is he?

More to the point, you are adding a burden to the Bible you impose on it because you are saying the equivalent of "If I was God, when I revealed my divine Word, I would..." and the Bible says it is the Word of God but does not say "No repeats within."

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18-11-2014, 05:13 PM (This post was last modified: 18-11-2014 05:17 PM by microterf.)
RE: isaiah 37, 2 kings 19.
(18-11-2014 01:23 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Are you implying the FSM lacks the ability to give two of his adherents the same revelation, word for word? Is he that tepid? Well, he's not al dente, then, is he?

More to the point, you are adding a burden to the Bible you impose on it because you are saying the equivalent of "If I was God, when I revealed my divine Word, I would..." and the Bible says it is the Word of God but does not say "No repeats within."

I think you're missing the point. If you believe 100% that there is a god, and that the bible is his inspired word, then you will have no problems with deuterographs in the bible in the same way the mother would defend her son's statement that he gave to the police which happened to be identical to his friends which happened to be his alibi in a murder investigation. An investigator will look at those statements and realize they are probably rehearsed.

When her son is in prison because of all the overwhelming evidence against him, she will still proclaim his innocence, but every other sane person out there, including the jury won't buy it, and no matter how much she doesn't want him to be the killer, it won't change the fact that he did.

We look at the bible that way, you would look at our books the same way. You wouldn't just be ok with the FSM having two people write down the IDENTICAL thing multiple times. You would question the authenticity and the divinity of the documents. That would be justifiable.

Remember, just because you want something to be true, that doesn't make it true.

Remember, just because you want something to be true, doesn't make it true. Yes, even if you have faith.
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