it's your choice
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22-05-2014, 10:00 AM
RE: it's your choice
(13-05-2014 07:42 PM)Raphael1 Wrote:  
(13-05-2014 04:42 AM)Dee Wrote:  My boss does not like me because I am atheist and she is an idiot. She said, "to me you cannot be other than antichrist and my personal enemy if you do not believe in the existence of God." I did my homework before I spoke Big Grin .
I am sorry that you were hurt by a so called "Christian". Some people claim it
but some of them don't live it. Her words would lead me to doubt if she really was.
Jesus would NOT do that and he does NOT teach us to do that either. We are
supposed to love God and love people and that does NOT specify whether
they are believers or unbelievers.
In his ministry, Jesus spent most of his time with rough people(as I am)
some of whom were believers, some were not. He loves people either way.
.....Raphael1


And another thing. There are no eyewitnesses to Jesus' ministry that wrote during his life. Everything in the NT was written decades and centuries after he died by people who didn't even know Jesus. It's as screwy a religion as Scientology.Facepalm

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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22-05-2014, 05:04 PM
RE: it's your choice
(10-05-2014 12:53 PM)Raphael1 Wrote:  Atheist,

I am a Christian.

Let’s look at this:
If you are right, and there is no God, then we all just cease to exist at our death and what we do does not really make any difference. Except I KNOW that I have attempted in my life to always do the right thing, not always successfully but my effort is still there.

Now on the other hand, if I am right and I KNOW that I am, then at my death, I will go to heaven not because I am such a good person (I’m not) but because God so loved the world (you and me) that He gave His only begotten son (Jesus) that whosoever (you and me) believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life (heaven). John 3:16

Jesus said “I am the way, the truth and the life; NOBODY comes to the Father but by me.”

All we’ve got to do is acknowledge our sinful state and ask Him to forgive us and save us. He WILL and if I am right, and I know that I am, then you will spend eternity in anguish and pain in hell. I am sorry…God does not want anyone to go into hell and he gave us a way out (Jesus). God wants all of us to be in heaven with Him.
……………………………………….. The CHOICE is yours.........Raphael1

Hitchens 1:1 - What can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.


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23-05-2014, 08:04 AM
RE: it's your choice
(15-05-2014 07:11 PM)Raphael1 Wrote:  
(14-05-2014 09:04 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  I'd like to add Raphael, that you yourself said that feelings are dangerous. I agree with you. When one acts on their feelings instead of reason and logic, even if
one doesn't do evil to others like Hitler did, one does evil to themselves because acting on faith is a break from reality and an abdication of reason, man's only way of coming to true conclusions about the world. Will you agree with me that faith is not a means of coming to a true knowledge of reality?

Scotsman, It depends on what/who you put your faith in. Hitler used reason & logic. Evil reason & logic. If you could ask him he could supply you with his
reason backed up with his logic. Reason & logic are only as good as the motives of
the people devising them.
Good reason & logic are very important but we need to leave room for the
unexplainable. That is where faith comes in.
I want to thank you for your rational arguments. Many of the responses
I have received were laced with juvenile vulgarity.
I wont be posting for awhile as the snow is melting out of the mountains and
we are going to spend a lot of time up there...God bless...Raphael1

Raphael I hope you had a good time in the mountains. Our snow is clearing and I too have been out hiking.

I hope also that you will read this post because I have to respond to what you said.

You are making a critical error in your thinking. You are confusing reason and rationalism. The two are nowhere close to being the same thing. Rationalism is a way of making the unreasonable appear to be reasonable and the method used is context dropping. Yes you can use logic and reason out of context to justify almost anything. But reason is all about context keeping. Reason considers every available pertinent fact of reality. Rationalism evades facts of reality. I don't understand how anyone could achieve the age of 62 without discovering this error.

I know why you and every Christian I have ever met makes this error. It stems from an even more fundamental error which is that you all hold that consciousness has primacy over existence. I know I'm using some philosophical language here so let me explain. What that means is that you believe that reality is the product of consciousness.

I hold the opposite view. I hold that existence has primacy over consciousness. Consciousness is the faculty which perceives reality and not the faculty which creates it.

One of us is wrong. I'm willing to let reality be the judge.

Incidentally I've just shown you exactly how to convert True Scotsman. Prove to me that consciousness has primacy over existence and you will be 99% of the way there.

Raphael I don't have faith. I live to the best of my ability by reason alone. Faith is not a means of cognition. It is a completely unreliable way of discovering the truth. You know this because you don't believe in any of the thousands of other faith traditions out there and they don't believe yours. You can't all be right but you could all be wrong. So faith as a way of getting to the truth is a total failure. So far that is all you have given us as evidence is your faith. It carries no weight here nor should it.

Whenever someone says "sure reason is important and all but we have to leave room for mystery" what they are really saying is please don't expect me to live by reason alone. Let me have my irrational beliefs. But it is either one or the other. There can be no innocent breach of reason.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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23-05-2014, 09:45 AM
RE: it's your choice
(10-05-2014 12:53 PM)Raphael1 Wrote:  Now on the other hand, if I am right and I KNOW that I am.

What a coincidence, I know I'm right too! We do have something in common. Nothing to see here, but the same vicious argument. Can we convince you that you are wrong? Probably not. Don't waste your breath, and we don't have to waste ours. It's your choice..

A wise person makes their own decisions; an ignorant one follows public opinion.
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27-05-2014, 03:14 PM
RE: it's your choice
(23-05-2014 09:45 AM)Elskidor Wrote:  
(10-05-2014 12:53 PM)Raphael1 Wrote:  Now on the other hand, if I am right and I KNOW that I am.

What a coincidence, I know I'm right too! We do have something in common. Nothing to see here, but the same vicious argument. Can we convince you that you are wrong? Probably not. Don't waste your breath, and we don't have to waste ours. It's your choice..

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28-05-2014, 03:01 PM
RE: it's your choice
(10-05-2014 12:53 PM)Raphael1 Wrote:  Atheist,

I am a Christian.

Let’s look at this:
If you are right, and there is no God, then we all just cease to exist at our death and what we do does not really make any difference. Except I KNOW that I have attempted in my life to always do the right thing, not always successfully but my effort is still there.

Now on the other hand, if I am right and I KNOW that I am, then at my death, I will go to heaven not because I am such a good person (I’m not) but because God so loved the world (you and me) that He gave His only begotten son (Jesus) that whosoever (you and me) believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life (heaven). John 3:16

Of course you "KNOW" that you are right, just as all the Muslims "KNOW" that they are right and you are wrong. I hate to break this to you, but just because you were indoctrinated to believe in something doesn't make it true. Also, the assumption that you are special in the eyes of your god because your were brought up to believe in the "right" religion and all non-Christians were brought up to believe in the wrong religion is pretty conceited. Nice to know that your god makes billions of expendables.

“Religion was invented when the first con man met the first fool.” - Mark Twain
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23-06-2014, 10:31 AM
RE: it's your choice
If there is a god and he is a good one then I have nothing to worry about being an atheist for a moral god wouldn't care whether or not I believe.
If there is a god and he is evil then I wouldn't worship it anyway.

If there is no god then the entire point becomes moot.

Yeah still an atheist.

Trouble rather the tiger in his lair than the sage among his books. For to you kingdoms and their armies are things mighty and enduring, but to him they are but toys of the moment, to be overturned with the flick of a finger.”

― Gordon R. Dickson
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23-06-2014, 11:41 AM
RE: it's your choice
(10-05-2014 12:53 PM)Raphael1 Wrote:  Atheist,

I am a Christian.
So what.
Quote:Let’s look at this:
If you are right, and there is no God, then we all just cease to exist at our death and what we do does not really make any difference. Except I KNOW that I have attempted in my life to always do the right thing, not always successfully but my effort is still there.

I also know that I have attempted in my life to always do the right thing, not always successfully, but my effort is still there.

Quote:Now on the other hand, if I am right and I KNOW that I am, then at my death, I will go to heaven not because I am such a good person (I’m not) but because God so loved the world (you and me) that He gave His only begotten son (Jesus) that whosoever (you and me) believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life (heaven). John 3:16
If you are right, and I KNOW you are not, then the Bible is true and God, a vicious and hateful terrorist and extortionist, will reward you in the same way Don Corleone rewarded those businessmen who paid him protection money: A God who demands your loyalty in exchange for protection from what he's going to do to you if you do not give him your loyalty is nothing short of an extortionist, and should be exposed as such. You worship an extortionist. A fictional one, fortunately, but an extortionist nonetheless.

Quote:Jesus said “I am the way, the truth and the life; NOBODY comes to the Father but by me.”
Fred Flintsone said "Yabba Dabba Doo."

Quote:All we’ve got to do is acknowledge our sinful state and ask Him to forgive us and save us. He WILL and if I am right, and I know that I am, then you will spend eternity in anguish and pain in hell. I am sorry…God does not want anyone to go into hell

Bullshit. A God who wants to send no one to hell does not create hell and does not consign the majority of people who ever lived to suffer in it for all eternity.

Quote: and he gave us a way out (Jesus). God wants all of us to be in heaven with Him.

No, he does not. If he did, he would just make it so, no conditions, no extortion.

Quote:……………………………………….. The CHOICE is yours.........Raphael1

The choice is HIS. If he wants to be a good and loving God, he will embrace all people. If he wants to be an extortionist, he will resort to vicious threats to compel obedience. He chose option B. That's HIS choice, not mine.

In any event, you're not right. And I am not impressed by the empty threats of the fictional, evil tyrant whom you praise for his alleged goodness and mercy.

Religion is proof that invisible men can obscure your vision.
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23-06-2014, 06:14 PM
RE: it's your choice
(23-05-2014 09:45 AM)Elskidor Wrote:  
(10-05-2014 12:53 PM)Raphael1 Wrote:  Now on the other hand, if I am right and I KNOW that I am.

What a coincidence, I know I'm right too! We do have something in common. Nothing to see here, but the same vicious argument. Can we convince you that you are wrong? Probably not. Don't waste your breath, and we don't have to waste ours. It's your choice..

Can you please explain how it's a *choice* when one clearly does not believe, and then explain how that squares with intellectual honesty. Are you free to "choose" what you know is not true ? And BTW, YOUR Jebus said, "Many are called, but few are chosen", and "No one shall come to me unless the Father draw him", so I guess it's not OUR choice now is it, or do YOU actually know better than your Jebus about these things ?


I mean, is your god SO fucking dumb, she wouldn't actually *know* if someone was saying they believe, when they didn't ?

I like your name. Rapha-El. One of the messengers of the Babylonian chief god, El. Are you a pagan, like your name ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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23-06-2014, 09:54 PM
RE: it's your choice
Quote:Atheist,

Who, me?

Quote:I am a Christian.

Erm, good for you? What do you want, a cookie?

Quote:Let’s look at this:

As you were addressing me (or someone named, 'Atheist'), I'm the one looking at it, not you.

Quote:If you are right, and there is no God,

I don't posit the notion that there is no god, I reject the notion that there is a god.

Quote:then we all just cease to exist at our death and what we do does not really make any difference.


Oh, boo-hoo!

Quote:Except I KNOW that I have attempted in my life to always do the right thing, not always successfully but my effort is still there.

Again, what do you want, a cookie?

Quote:Now on the other hand, if I am right and I KNOW that I am,

Well, that doesn't make you sound like a pretentious jackass, now does it? Rolleyes

Quote:then at my death, I will go to heaven not because I am such a good person (I’m not)

I thought that you said you were? At the very least, if you're honest, then the effort was there.

Quote:but because God so loved the world (you and me)

Sorry to spoil the fun, but the world is a tad larger than just you and me.

Quote:that He gave His only begotten son (Jesus) that whosoever (you and me) believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life (heaven). John 3:16

Wouldn't eternal life be boring? I think I'd rather just die like everyone else.


Quote:Jesus said “I am the way, the truth and the life; NOBODY comes to the Father but by me.”

Prove it.

Quote:All we’ve got to do is acknowledge our sinful state and ask Him to forgive us and save us. He WILL and if I am right, and I know that I am,

There it is again. Rolleyes

Quote:then you will spend eternity in anguish and pain in hell. I am sorry…God does not want anyone to go into hell and he gave us a way out (Jesus). God wants all of us to be in heaven with Him.

God -- the omnipotent creator and omniarch of all reality, including every person on this pebble we call Earth -- wants everyone to go to heaven, and yet, he decided to create an arbitrary requirement for doing so? Clearly he's not omniscient; I think he's almost as stupid as you seem to be.

Quote:……………………………………….. The CHOICE is yours.........Raphael1


Hmmmmm....Consider

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