jesus is real
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29-11-2011, 03:37 PM
RE: jesus is real
(29-11-2011 03:23 PM)lucradis Wrote:  Hahah not only do I not pray but I meant his car. The transmission of his car. Due to lack of maintenance because of reliance on faith. If you are sarcastic as well I apologize for it is lost in the text! Ha

No sarcasm, I was riffing on the Apostles' Creed:
"....
I believe in the Holy Ghost,
the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints,
the remission of sins,
the resurrection of the flesh and life eternal."

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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29-11-2011, 03:40 PM
RE: jesus is real
(29-11-2011 03:29 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Use dogmatic in a sentence:

Yes, I am dogmatic about Gwyneth Paltrow. About everything else, I'm a pussycat. Wink

I'd say it's a form of vapor lock; dogmatism does not allow for an open mind.
But like all things, a balance is necessary. To be other than dogmatic about ellenjanuary (my name) would be to lack definition.

Thanks HoC! Ok, so you had me up until the balance part. I'm sorry, I want to understand so let me try to rehash what I think you're saying:

Some amount of dogmatism is necessary (as the saying goes, "Try to have an open mind, but not so open that your brain falls out"). Some rules are required for a definition- such as to define yourself, you need some sort of boundaries.

Do I have that right? Am I even close?
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29-11-2011, 03:45 PM
RE: jesus is real
Right-o Kineo. Wink

My goal is not "self-improvement," but rather an ever greater completeness. Wink

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29-11-2011, 03:48 PM (This post was last modified: 29-11-2011 03:50 PM by kineo.)
RE: jesus is real
Right on, thanks! Big Grin
I wonder into how many different directions this thread will split...
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29-11-2011, 03:51 PM
RE: jesus is real
(29-11-2011 03:37 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(29-11-2011 03:23 PM)lucradis Wrote:  Hahah not only do I not pray but I meant his car. The transmission of his car. Due to lack of maintenance because of reliance on faith. If you are sarcastic as well I apologize for it is lost in the text! Ha

No sarcasm, I was riffing on the Apostles' Creed:
"....
I believe in the Holy Ghost,
the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints,
the remission of sins,
the resurrection of the flesh and life eternal."
So that's were I got my "sheep shearer deluxe:"

Acceptance of the Holy Spirit means eternal life is now.

But my form is atheistic and used to keep JWs from the doorway - and furthermore, it is true if one understands the terms. The most important term being - now. Wink

Resurrection of the flesh? Ewww...

Being able, in this flesh, to remember "all human history (a simplification)?" An extrapolation of the holographic universe hypothesis, an awareness of simultaneity, a knowledge that there is but one time, and that time is now. Wink

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29-11-2011, 06:15 PM
RE: jesus is real
(21-11-2011 12:25 PM)Stark Raving Wrote:  How bout you give us some evidence that jesus is real. But good pieces of evidence, not dumb ones, ok?

I notice your comment has been getting quite a few 'reputations'. I will add one. First of all, before I start my argument, I want to let you know I admire you. A person (whether they believe in Christ or not) who is dedicated in spreading their belief so much that they join a website to talk about it, that is good. I don't know you're age, but I know many people who don't care about what's happening to them after they die. Whether your belief set is right or wrong, at least you know the value of knowing what you believe in.
Now, the argument. 1- "How bout you give us some evidence that jesus is real". You have failed to answer the original question. You've avoided it.
2- Evidence for Jesus' Resurrection? His disciples. If they did not believe that Jesus rose from the dead, they wouldn't have allowed themselves to be tortured and killed for what they knew to be a lie. You might say they were hallucinating. But people (plural) don't hallucinate the same exact thing at the same exact time. And Saul/Paul. He was once a Christian murderer, yet then he renounced his beliefs. Why? Because God appeared to him personally.
3- Before you say Jesus didn't exist Check this out- "2. The existence of Jesus Christ is recorded by the Jewish historian, Flavius Josephus, who was born in A.D. 37.

Now there was about this time, Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works—a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles.

He was (the) Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those who loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day (Antiquities, XVIII, III)

3. The Roman historian Cornelius Tacitus (A.D. 112) referred to Jesus Christ and the Christians in Rome when he wrote about the reign of Nero (Annals, XV; 44). He further, in his Histories, referred to Christianity when mentioning the burning of the temple of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, which record was preserved by Sulpicius Severus (Chronicles, 30:6). Additionally, the Roman historian Seutonius (A.D. 120) referred to Jesus or His followers in “Life of Claudius” (A.D. 112) in his Epistles, X, 96.

4. Writings from Jewish Rabbis (circa A.D. 40-180) in the Talmud and other Jewish writings refer to Jesus Christ, i.e., His “hanging” (on a cross) on the eve of Passover, His identification along with the names of five of His disciples, certain healings in His name and scoffing at the “claim” that He was born of a virgin—implying His birth was probably “illegitimate.”
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30-11-2011, 10:23 AM
RE: jesus is real
Hahahaha i guess you guys feel special trying to dog this guy out..... You bros are soooooo fucking COOL! Big GrinBig GrinBig GrinBig Grin
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30-11-2011, 10:35 AM
RE: jesus is real
HeWillPrevail what exactly is your religion and im 16 just a kid in 11th grade and yes im trying to find more of a way i could explain it how he is real without them saying things i could use personal argumentation but thats just how i feel not how they have seen or felt. So im trying to talk to my pastor and others about ways to do so.
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30-11-2011, 10:42 AM (This post was last modified: 30-11-2011 10:46 AM by defacto7.)
RE: jesus is real
(29-11-2011 06:15 PM)HeWillPrevail Wrote:  Now, the argument. 1- "How bout you give us some evidence that jesus is real". You have failed to answer the original question. You've avoided it.
2- Evidence for Jesus' Resurrection? His disciples. If they did not believe that Jesus rose from the dead, they wouldn't have allowed themselves to be tortured and killed for what they knew to be a lie. You might say they were hallucinating. But people (plural) don't hallucinate the same exact thing at the same exact time. And Saul/Paul. He was once a Christian murderer, yet then he renounced his beliefs. Why? Because God appeared to him personally.
3- Before you say Jesus didn't exist Check this out- "2. The existence of Jesus Christ is recorded by the Jewish historian, Flavius Josephus, who was born in A.D. 37.

Now there was about this time, Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works—a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles.

He was (the) Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those who loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day (Antiquities, XVIII, III)

3. The Roman historian Cornelius Tacitus (A.D. 112) referred to Jesus Christ and the Christians in Rome when he wrote about the reign of Nero (Annals, XV; 44). He further, in his Histories, referred to Christianity when mentioning the burning of the temple of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, which record was preserved by Sulpicius Severus (Chronicles, 30:6). Additionally, the Roman historian Seutonius (A.D. 120) referred to Jesus or His followers in “Life of Claudius” (A.D. 112) in his Epistles, X, 96.

4. Writings from Jewish Rabbis (circa A.D. 40-180) in the Talmud and other Jewish writings refer to Jesus Christ, i.e., His “hanging” (on a cross) on the eve of Passover, His identification along with the names of five of His disciples, certain healings in His name and scoffing at the “claim” that He was born of a virgin—implying His birth was probably “illegitimate.”

May I introduce you to the facts?

http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/camel.html

Read up! Than come back with a real argument, if one exists.

Your case in point above has been reduced to rubble for a very long time. It is tedious to repeat the same old arguments. So if you are really interested in reality, read the above or the many, many posts on this site that take all of those points and many more you have not mentioned and rethink your data. It's non-existent.

Who can turn skies back and begin again?
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30-11-2011, 10:58 AM
RE: jesus is real
(29-11-2011 06:15 PM)HeWillPrevail Wrote:  
(21-11-2011 12:25 PM)Stark Raving Wrote:  How bout you give us some evidence that jesus is real. But good pieces of evidence, not dumb ones, ok?

Now, the argument. 1- "How bout you give us some evidence that jesus is real". You have failed to answer the original question. You've avoided it.

I didn't avoid it at all actually. I was pretty clear in explaining that the original question is not answerable. Explaining the burden of proof over and over again gets exhausting, so I'll leave it up to you to educate yourself on what that means. There's plenty on this forum explaining it, or if you prefer, look elswhere. It's not hard to find.

As for the rest of your post, Defacto pretty much nailed it, so I won't bother picking your arguments apart. Don't think I am blowing you off. I don't mean it that way, but pretty much everything you've said has been covered so many times that it would be a waste to go over it all again. I just don't have the gusto to repeat myself for the hundredth time. Spend some time reading this forum, then c'mon back and let us know what you've found to be fallicious.

Or perhaps someone else would like to hone their debating skills and argue these points instead. For me, the redundancy is just frustrating and tiresome.

So many cats, so few good recipes.
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