jesus is real
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29-11-2011, 11:27 AM
RE: jesus is real
(29-11-2011 11:21 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(29-11-2011 11:14 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(29-11-2011 10:04 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(29-11-2011 09:43 AM)thatchristianguy Wrote:  Faith is a thought that you express. All yall ever want is proof, you don't need proof to believe in something lol im not a troll im DaylightDusk's friend. Think about your car you believe that it will crank up when you put the key in it, you dont need proof beforehand you put faith in it. Just like the chair you are sitting in, you put your faith in that chair that when you sit down, that it will hold you up. You put your faith in that chair.

Faith is a belief without evidence. I believe the chair will hold me or the car will start based on evidence; i.e. the chair held me the last time I sat on it, the car started yesterday. If the chair breaks or the car doesn't start, there is a rational, fact-based explanation - it's not because I didn't have enough faith.

Faith is sincerity and a vehicle for identity. To have faith is to invest one's identity in something other than the self. Like I have faith "doorway" is the way to go through the wall. Keeps the bruising to a minimum. Wink

So you're saying that acknowledging reality is faith?

I'm recounting personal experience. I have avoided the verb "to believe" for years and have thus found a greater clarity of thought. The verb implies mutability - either passive or kinetic - where the noun implies endurance. It goes beyond semantics. One cannot have faith without experience, and to have faith is to risk identity to ridicule. I don't have faith in FSM, but, as you imply; reality and the reality of myself. Wink

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29-11-2011, 11:31 AM
RE: jesus is real
(29-11-2011 11:14 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Faith is sincerity and a vehicle for identity. To have faith is to invest one's identity in something other than the self. Like I have faith "doorway" is the way to go through the wall. Keeps the bruising to a minimum. Wink

I think people mix up faith and trust. Faith is a belief that has no basis in fact (evidence) or it isn't faith. Trust is believing based on facts or experience in the tangible. Faith cannot change or said faith is eliminated. Trust can change just like facts can be adjusted to new information. If god were the appear in the "flesh" faith in god ends. I have trust that the chair will hold me up because I have sat in the chair before and chairs usually do hold when sat on. If the chair breaks under me, I have to reevaluate my facts to "This" chair didn't hold me up. Now I have to decide if that changes my trust in chairs. You can't do this reasoning with faith. Faith - trust, 2 different things.

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29-11-2011, 11:39 AM
RE: jesus is real
Uh-oh. Defacto7 is a dogmatic atheist. Tongue

Faith is a vehicle for identity. As my identity is in a constant sate of flux due to a continual increase in information, faith provides a cornerstone for stability. And the word is defined as sincerity. Tongue

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29-11-2011, 11:44 AM
RE: jesus is real
(29-11-2011 11:39 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Uh-oh. Defacto7 is a dogmatic atheist. Tongue

Faith is a vehicle for identity. As my identity is in a constant sate of flux due to a continual increase in information, faith provides a cornerstone for stability. And the word is defined as sincerity. Tongue

I'm a defacto atheist....

But... I have a certain respect for your view... it's very artistic! Tongue

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29-11-2011, 12:17 PM
RE: jesus is real
This thread is still going? That is actually quite a shocker. Perhaps it is worth pointing out (as others have stated in various ways) a few points.

1) Proclamation of something does not make it true. Any example will do (like the title of this thread) or a statement such as "aliens have visited Earth" or "The San Francisco 49ers are the best football team ever!" (the last one is totally true though) In order to evaluate whether or not something has a high probability of being true or not, there must be tangible evidence to support the claim. We can use my 2 examples: evidence of aliens would need to be something on the order of physical evidence whose only viable explanation is one of extraterrestrial origins. For my second example we would need some statistical measure to compare the 49ers to other teams. This could be a single measure (such as super bowls won vs. super bowls lost) or a combination (winning seasons, winning percentage, championships, hall of famers, etc, etc). It is not the statement that makes something true (or in a scientific way of putting it, more likely than not) but the evidence behind the statement. Your proclamation that Jesus is real was baseless and you ask us to provide some measure of his existence using evidence while you make a proclamation without evidence (that is a what we call hypocritical).

2) Building off of point 1, a single text written by man does not make something any more true than a proclamation. If this were the case, then any book ever written could be used as evidence for the existence of the characters within (mickey mouse would be real). Evidence of the existence of something is physical and even when constructing evidence based on historical accounts it must be considered that the individual writing may have been lying or writing rumors. This is why multiple sources are needed to corroborate any story (modern or ancient)

3) I believe most historians agree that someone named "Jesus" probably did exist, but none of these historical accounts attribute anything to him other than being a human being who was a traveling preacher and he was crucified. No resurrection, no virgin birth, no son of god, no miracles, just a normal traveling jewish guy.

4)Are you really arguing the existence of Jesus the individual or the existence of Jesus the son of god who performed miracles? One most likely existed and the other did not.

This was a bit of an elaboration on my first post.

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29-11-2011, 01:01 PM
RE: jesus is real
(29-11-2011 11:39 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Uh-oh. Defacto7 is a dogmatic atheist. Tongue

Faith is a vehicle for identity. As my identity is in a constant sate of flux due to a continual increase in information, faith provides a cornerstone for stability. And the word is defined as sincerity. Tongue

I don't understand what you mean by "Faith is a vehicle for identity". What you describe seems better described by "Knowledge and world-view", not faith.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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29-11-2011, 01:02 PM (This post was last modified: 29-11-2011 01:07 PM by houseofcantor.)
RE: jesus is real
(29-11-2011 12:17 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  4)Are you really arguing the existence of Jesus the individual or the existence of Jesus the son of god who performed miracles? One most likely existed and the other did not.

Neither. It was all in Paul's mind, and it got into other people's minds through electromagnetic communication. Tongue
(29-11-2011 11:44 AM)defacto7 Wrote:  
(29-11-2011 11:39 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Uh-oh. Defacto7 is a dogmatic atheist. Tongue

Faith is a vehicle for identity. As my identity is in a constant sate of flux due to a continual increase in information, faith provides a cornerstone for stability. And the word is defined as sincerity. Tongue

I'm a defacto atheist....

But... I have a certain respect for your view... it's very artistic! Tongue

Are you implying a fecal origin in my world view? Big Grin
(29-11-2011 01:01 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(29-11-2011 11:39 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Uh-oh. Defacto7 is a dogmatic atheist. Tongue

Faith is a vehicle for identity. As my identity is in a constant sate of flux due to a continual increase in information, faith provides a cornerstone for stability. And the word is defined as sincerity. Tongue

I don't understand what you mean by "Faith is a vehicle for identity". What you describe seems better described by "Knowledge and world-view", not faith.

Another dogmatic. Big Grin

I have faith in Gwyneth Paltrow - never met the girl, love her like stupid; and having faith in her is an investment of my identity. There's a lot of peeps who find her to be self-absorbed, annoying, and unattractive; thus they would find my faith ludicrous. They are wrong. All there is to it. Big Grin

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29-11-2011, 01:08 PM (This post was last modified: 29-11-2011 01:11 PM by defacto7.)
RE: jesus is real
(29-11-2011 01:02 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Are you implying a fecal origin in my world view? Big Grin

I think your world view is cool. Very, very cool. Like 2 degrees C. Big Grin

jk really....

I actually do look at it very seriously....

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29-11-2011, 01:18 PM
RE: jesus is real
Ahh yes...Paul. An intriguing character who wrote about Jesus but also failed to mention certain key characteristics of Jesus' life that appear in later gospels written well after Jesus' death. Your theory of it all being in Paul's mind is probably much more accurate but later writers of the gospels incorporated stories from other myths into the story of Jesus. No new information to the atheists I am sure but something for the OP to think about?

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29-11-2011, 01:22 PM
RE: jesus is real
It is my contention that the Gospels are straight fiction and are actually an early form of meme. Why is there so many extant copies of the early NT? Shit wasn't cheap or easy... it was a play performed on the stage of life to give Paul's meme a life of its own.

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