lies or the truth?

[Free Thought]

By "dance around the truth" do you mean to imply that you are deliberately avoiding it?

[Vera]

(04-12-2012 04:58 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  By "dance around the truth" do you mean to imply that you are deliberately avoiding it?

Yeah. Without saying a downright lie. Again, this is when the truth may give pain.

[Tartarus Sauce]

Either that, or to get yourself out of an extremely unpleasant situation (or as an act of preemptive avoidance).

[Free Thought]

I must be one of those few people who hate it when people bullshit me or others. If something bad is going down I'd want the truth, and I figure it is better for others to be told the truth rather than be bullshit'd and have false expectations.

[Vera]

(04-12-2012 05:30 PM)Free Thought Wrote:  I must be one of those few people who hate it when people bullshit me or others. If something bad is going down I'd want the truth, and I figure it is better for others to be told the truth rather than be bullshit'd and have false expectations.

No, you misunderstand. I hate bullshit, too.

I'm talking about saving people needless pain, a situation where the truth won't be of any service to them, but may hurt them. (e.g., though not a very good one - me not telling my dad I'm an atheist. Serves no purpose and may cause him needless pain. Why do it then? Or telling an old, fragile person about a serious problem that they can't help with but that may really worry them. You know, stuff like this.)

[Birdguy1979]

I respect the truth. If I were 80 years old and they found I had cancer then told me there is nothing they can do, I might decide that I had a good run and it is time to check out. I personally don't see how lies help anything. Learning the truth early on might help someone prevent a problem or decide to take action on something. The idea of not telling someone that you are an atheist is really just self preservation if you are afraid that they will cut you out of their life.

[Vera]

(08-12-2012 10:47 AM)Birdguy1979 Wrote:  I respect the truth. If I were 80 years old and they found I had cancer then told me there is nothing they can do, I might decide that I had a good run and it is time to check out. I personally don't see how lies help anything. Learning the truth early on might help someone prevent a problem or decide to take action on something. The idea of not telling someone that you are an atheist is really just self preservation if you are afraid that they will cut you out of their life.

How about if you're 40 and you learn that you have cancer. Would you tell a very old and fragile relative, who'd probably die before you, just so that they know the truth?

And I come from a rational enough country where parents do not cut children out of their lives because they are atheist. Me not telling my dad about my lack of belief is NOT about self-preservation and IS about saving someone that I love possible pain and worry.

As simple as that.

[Dom]

(08-12-2012 10:47 AM)Birdguy1979 Wrote:  I respect the truth. If I were 80 years old and they found I had cancer then told me there is nothing they can do, I might decide that I had a good run and it is time to check out. I personally don't see how lies help anything. Learning the truth early on might help someone prevent a problem or decide to take action on something. The idea of not telling someone that you are an atheist is really just self preservation if you are afraid that they will cut you out of their life.

I - I - I - I - that's all I hear from you.

Have you no empathy?

[Birdguy1979]

I do have empathy. My grandfather was about 80 when he died a horrible death. His skin was actually turning black from lack of oxygen due to his failing heart. It hurt him if you just touched him. It was found that he also had a mass growing in one of his lungs and my family decided not to tell him or his wife (my grandmother). My grandmother did not want to let him go, nor did my mother. He did not need to drag on for a few years when there was no quality of life left. If people were truthful with both of them, he might not have had to suffer as much. I say this because of the extreme measures taken to keep him going. So, again me personally would want the truth even if it hurts like a bitch.

[Vera]

(08-12-2012 12:26 PM)Birdguy1979 Wrote:  I do have empathy. My grandfather was about 80 when he died a horrible death. His skin was actually turning black from lack of oxygen due to his failing heart. It hurt him if you just touched him. It was found that he also had a mass growing in one of his lungs and my family decided not to tell him or his wife (my grandmother). My grandmother did not want to let him go, nor did my mother. He did not need to drag on for a few years when there was no quality of life left. If people were truthful with both of them, he might not have had to suffer as much. I say this because of the extreme measures taken to keep him going. So, again me personally would want the truth even if it hurts like a bitch.

Yeah, but that's a different situation. In this one - yeah, hiding the truth was probably not the best idea.

But in my scenario (and in a lot of others) hiding it is the most compassionate choice.

This is what some of us have been trying to say (in general, not to you personally, obviously), that it all depends on the situation and the people involved.

(Although this in itself is a probably black-and-white statement), nothing is ever black or white.