mahommid and his 9 year old bride
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08-07-2015, 02:14 AM
RE: mahommid and his 9 year old bride
(08-07-2015 02:03 AM)purpledaisies Wrote:  
(08-07-2015 01:44 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Thanks for the info.


For you it is, for others it may be not. I would also say it's wrong but there is little sense in judging long dead people by our standards, it's not like they knew better.
True. However most Islamic men think he is the ideal man. So they strive to do what he did. So its still going on.

It's not like we could do anything about this.

Not to mention my country have troubles with catholicism not islam.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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08-07-2015, 02:32 AM
RE: mahommid and his 9 year old bride
It was definitely common at the time. Now? Not so much. Is that because, like slavery, we worked out it was wrong? Probably not. It's a change in what our societies expect of us. Prior to modern education of the masses, we didn't have this weird in-between stage that exists now. The moment you hit your teens, you were an adult (and they often had ceremonies involving tormenting the kiddies to get through it to become adults, which I think was the original reason for circumcision). In an older society where the norm was that you'd grow up working around the home then either start an unskilled job or else apprentice with someone who'd teach you farming or smithing or whatever, there wasn't a need. When modern education came about with it's 20+ year span of teaching, things changed. Since everyone was _expected_ to at least finish high-school (around age 18) in order to be 'ready' for the world, you weren't an adult until then. Biology, for thousands of years, insists you are, but society has a different idea. And so we invented the teenager, not a child, not quite an adult.
Aisha was supposedly 9, which is a few years earlier than that, but not all that much. We again consider it wrong mainly due to the change in requirements. At the time, girls became women the moment they had their first period, and thus were able to conceive. He wasn't marrying a child, he was marrying someone who was, by the standards of the time, an adult. Even in the modern world, age of consent can vary dramatically. Even in places we consider to be civilized it can be lower than one might expect. Japan, while usually functionally at 18, is, by law, only set to 13 (and it could be conceivable that a 13 year old could engage that way without consequences). And that's today! A thousand years ago? Who knows what they'd think.
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08-07-2015, 02:43 AM
RE: mahommid and his 9 year old bride
Marriage at that early age was frowned upon in Roman society centuries before Islam. Usually the earliest was around 12 or 13 but would not be consummated until some years later. Normally the girl would be 15 to 18 before being married. Marrying a girl under 12 was considered scandalous indeed.

Of course in the east things were very different. The east was seen as extremely decadent by the more conservative Romans. So Mohammed marrying Aisha at 9 and consummating the marriage 2 or 3 years later was still rather unusual. At least in Roman terms. But as I said, the east was quite different.

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11-07-2015, 09:50 PM
RE: mahommid and his 9 year old bride
Well! It was Arab, a big desert where they used to eat snakes and burry their new born girls alive. Sex was not an issue. There was a huge market for it. This was Arab of that time and pretty much everything was allowed.
He only fucked old females before so now he actually wanted a virgin. He couldn't wait so he did.
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12-07-2015, 08:22 AM
RE: mahommid and his 9 year old bride
(08-07-2015 02:32 AM)OddGamer Wrote:  It was definitely common at the time. Now? Not so much. Is that because, like slavery, we worked out it was wrong? Probably not. It's a change in what our societies expect of us. Prior to modern education of the masses, we didn't have this weird in-between stage that exists now. The moment you hit your teens, you were an adult (and they often had ceremonies involving tormenting the kiddies to get through it to become adults, which I think was the original reason for circumcision). In an older society where the norm was that you'd grow up working around the home then either start an unskilled job or else apprentice with someone who'd teach you farming or smithing or whatever, there wasn't a need. When modern education came about with it's 20+ year span of teaching, things changed. Since everyone was _expected_ to at least finish high-school (around age 18) in order to be 'ready' for the world, you weren't an adult until then. Biology, for thousands of years, insists you are, but society has a different idea. And so we invented the teenager, not a child, not quite an adult.
Aisha was supposedly 9, which is a few years earlier than that, but not all that much. We again consider it wrong mainly due to the change in requirements. At the time, girls became women the moment they had their first period, and thus were able to conceive. He wasn't marrying a child, he was marrying someone who was, by the standards of the time, an adult. Even in the modern world, age of consent can vary dramatically. Even in places we consider to be civilized it can be lower than one might expect. Japan, while usually functionally at 18, is, by law, only set to 13 (and it could be conceivable that a 13 year old could engage that way without consequences). And that's today! A thousand years ago? Who knows what they'd think.


I would just like to throw a pebble in your pool. The age of menstruation for girls prior to the second industrial revolution was of 16-17 years old. In fact, in the last five decades the average for a girl first menstruation seems to have decrease significantly in most country thanks to much richer food.

The idea of teenager hood is nothing new either. The word itself is over 800 years old. Apprenticeship would constitute «teenager hood» before. It was the age at which a person could be judge by the law, but wasn't necessary married or financially independent (AKA have your own household). For girls it was the «maiden» period of their lives between their first menstruation and marriage. Maidens and apprentice were not adult. A girl not old enough to be menstruated by almost 10 years was still a child.

The idea of having a child bride isn't new, but it’s traditionally forbidden for her husband to have intercourse with her before she has her first menstruation and even then, it was custom to wait for the second one to be on the safe side. Traditionally, marriage is a contract designed to own a female individual and establish alliances between household which is very important in every survivalist agrarian cultures like ancient Hebrews or Greeks for example. We know that Aisha was 9 when she was married, but we don't know if the union was consumed at that point (or at all). When you can be polygamous, some of your wives are yours only for status purpose, alliances or simply to clean your palace. You aren't forced to have sex with them.


As for Japan laws about the age of consent, you might want to read the full three pages and not stop at the first paragraph that state the lowest age of consent. Like in many country, it comes by stages and there is restrictions surrounding certain sexual practice (namely sodomy).
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12-07-2015, 08:48 AM
RE: mahommid and his 9 year old bride
one would presume a universe and life creating super genie would understand that all of his human creations had equal worth, and that things like rape and the enslavement of one people by another would be ....well against the "ten commandments" but no...no...clearly this isn't true and covet not thy neighbor's wife is more important. One would think raping children would be ........ungodly...but no, 1.6 billion muslims think otherwise.

Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) narrated that the Prophet (may the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) married her when she was six years old, and he consummated her in marriage when she was nine years old. Then she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).

Khadijah died three years before the Prophet (the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) departed to Madina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consummated that marriage when she was nine years old.

Urwa narrated: The Prophet (may the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him) wrote the (marriage contract) with Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years.

Aisha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.

Aisha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was six years old, and she was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old.

This is just a sample of the early Muslim traditions reporting Muhammad’s marriage to the young Aisha, but it is sufficient to show that she certainly wasn’t fifteen years old at the time of the consummation, as some Muslims claim.

here is an educational link for you showing the Islamic proof that his wife was 9yo upon marriage/sex.

http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/prepubescent.htm

Muslims are quick to point out immorality around the world, especially in the West. It seems, then, that they are suggesting a very inconsistent message. When confronted with an immoral practice in another culture, Muslims cry out in one accord, "We condemn these practices, for they are against the eternal, perfect, and unalterable Law of God!" Yet, whenever the moral character of Muhammad is being scrutinized, Muslims suddenly say, "Don’t judge Muhammad! You should remember that he was from a different culture! Marrying young girls was common in Arabia, and it still is, thanks to Muhammad’s precedent. Different people have different moral standards, so no one should worry about Muhammad’s sexual relationship with a nine-year-old girl."

This convenient switch from moral absolutism to moral relativism is logically unacceptable. If it is wrong to judge the practices of another culture, then both Muhammad and the Qur’an were wrong for condemning immoral practices in Arabia. But if condemning immoral practices is acceptable, then Muslim apologists need a better response to criticisms of Muhammad’s relationship with Aisha.

According to Surah 65:4, a man must wait three months to divorce a wife who hasn’t yet reached menses. If Islam allows a man to divorce a girl who isn’t old enough to have her period, it follows that Islam also allows a man to marry a girl who hasn’t yet reached menses. And if the Qur’an allows marriage to prepubescent girls, then Muhammad’s marriage to Aisha would in no way rule out such a practice.

Muslims search for reasons to justify Muhammad’s relationship with Aisha because they are convinced that everything Muhammad did had a divine purpose behind it. When critics point out Muhammad’s numerous murders and assassinations, Muslims claim that these violent acts were just. When critics note the extent of Muhammad’s polygamy, or his participation in the slave-trade, or his countless robberies, Muslims provide answers based on the view that Muhammad was an outstanding moral example. Similarly, when Muslims are confronted with the evidence for Muhammad’s sexual encounters with Aisha, they assume that there must have been a reason for it. They then invent reasons for Muhammad’s behavior (i.e. the other little girls needed someone to talk to about sex), and they offer these reasons as a defense of Muhammad’s morality. However, non-Muslims do not share this confidence in Muhammad’s moral perfection. Indeed, when non-Muslims hear about Muhammad’s violence, his greed, his polygamy, and his support of spousal abuse, we aren’t as quick to say "He must have had a reason" as Muslims seem to be. Because of this, Muslim justifications for Muhammad’s marriage to Aisha sound hollow when presented as a logical defense of his actions.

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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12-07-2015, 08:56 AM
RE: mahommid and his 9 year old bride
@goodwithoutgod

thank you for the correction on Aisha story. I didn't knew she was most probably married at six and that her marriage was consumed at 9 years old.
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12-07-2015, 09:40 AM
RE: mahommid and his 9 year old bride
(12-07-2015 08:56 AM)epronovost Wrote:  @goodwithoutgod

thank you for the correction on Aisha story. I didn't knew she was most probably married at six and that her marriage was consumed at 9 years old.

Any time, I have some decent files on Islam as I think countering the plethora of misinformation out there propagated by Muslims is important. Their apologists are no better than the christian ones, both seek to tap dance and play interpretation games. I have stuff in my resource library about Islam, its fixation on child rape and why...

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid674834

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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