male circumcision of minors should be a felony
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09-10-2017, 01:32 PM
RE: male circumcision of minors should be a felony
(09-10-2017 01:16 PM)Banjo Wrote:  
(09-10-2017 12:38 PM)Aliza Wrote:  ^^^ Basically this. I was working on an explanation, but Yonadav Kenyon's post sums it up well. The intention was to remove by suction any blood in the area to prevent clotting. 2,000 years ago, it was decided suctioning out the wound was the safest thing for the baby, and the logical way to do this was to suction it out orally.

It's disgusting, but it's not pedophilia. Come on, people.

The Rabbinic tradition does not specify how the wound should be suctioned, only that it should be suctioned and cleaned. Today we use sterile gauze and sponges to clean the area, and most everyone I've ever known to order a bris for their baby chooses a Rabbi who is also a medical doctor. There is a small percentage of the Jewish population that still does this orally, but enacting legislation to stop it has been wholly ineffective. The best method to stop this is through education from within the Jewish community.

You guys can stand on your heads all day long, Jewish community will not change because of anything you say, do, or demonstrate. The change must come from within.

Aliza.

We are atheists. I see you continually attempt to justify insanity to us.

It won't work. Give it up.

What on earth can I possibly gain from successfully justifying anything to you or anyone else? Do you think something is going to change in my life if I convince you to adopt even an iota of my thinking? Rest assured, I live my life according to my own principles, and I don't need anyone's approval to do that.

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09-10-2017, 01:35 PM
RE: male circumcision of minors should be a felony
(09-10-2017 11:38 AM)Yonadav Kenyon Wrote:  As I said, pretty much only antireligious people are opposed to circumcision. That explains motive.

It may for some

Quote:I assume that these people would be opposed to bar and bat mitzvahs if they could think of a pretext for being opposed to them (without honestly saying that they are opposed to them for antireligious reasons).

I am anti-religion and have no problems at all with cultural expressions like that. They don't involve unnecessary surgery or violate anybody's bodily integrity so they aren't remotely comparable to circumcision.

Quote: Every single person in this discussion who claims that they aren't motivated to attack circumcision for antireligious reasons is not being truthful, probably not even to themselves.

Perhaps you should consider that being non-religious allows people to look at the practice more objectively. I object to it because the benefits are marginal and don't outweigh the negatives. The religious connection certainly doesn't help, but I don't have objections to christenings or infant baptisms which would be better comparisons than b* mitzvahs.

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09-10-2017, 01:44 PM
RE: male circumcision of minors should be a felony
(09-10-2017 01:35 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(09-10-2017 11:38 AM)Yonadav Kenyon Wrote:  As I said, pretty much only antireligious people are opposed to circumcision. That explains motive.

It may for some

Quote:I assume that these people would be opposed to bar and bat mitzvahs if they could think of a pretext for being opposed to them (without honestly saying that they are opposed to them for antireligious reasons).

I am anti-religion and have no problems at all with cultural expressions like that. They don't involve unnecessary surgery or violate anybody's bodily integrity so they aren't remotely comparable to circumcision.

Quote: Every single person in this discussion who claims that they aren't motivated to attack circumcision for antireligious reasons is not being truthful, probably not even to themselves.

Perhaps you should consider that being non-religious allows people to look at the practice more objectively. I object to it because the benefits are marginal and don't outweigh the negatives. The religious connection certainly doesn't help, but I don't have objections to christenings or infant baptisms which would be better comparisons than b* mitzvahs.

I consider non-religious and anti-religious to be completely different things. An anti religious person does not look at things objectively. They will object to any religious practice that they can find a pretext for objecting to. If it were not for their antireligious bias, those who are opposed to circumcision wouldn't care about it at all.
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09-10-2017, 01:50 PM
RE: male circumcision of minors should be a felony
(09-10-2017 01:44 PM)Yonadav Kenyon Wrote:  
(09-10-2017 01:35 PM)unfogged Wrote:  It may for some


I am anti-religion and have no problems at all with cultural expressions like that. They don't involve unnecessary surgery or violate anybody's bodily integrity so they aren't remotely comparable to circumcision.


Perhaps you should consider that being non-religious allows people to look at the practice more objectively. I object to it because the benefits are marginal and don't outweigh the negatives. The religious connection certainly doesn't help, but I don't have objections to christenings or infant baptisms which would be better comparisons than b* mitzvahs.

I consider non-religious and anti-religious to be completely different things. An anti religious person does not look at things objectively. They will object to any religious practice that they can find a pretext for objecting to. If it were not for their antireligious bias, those who are opposed to circumcision wouldn't care about it at all.

[bolding mine]

Sure. Now prove it.

Obviously denying the child the choice isn't reason enough to oppose this practice. Nor thinking that it may be health risk. Just anti religion bias Rolleyes

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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09-10-2017, 01:50 PM (This post was last modified: 09-10-2017 02:11 PM by SYZ.)
RE: male circumcision of minors should be a felony
(08-10-2017 06:01 AM)Banjo Wrote:  ... Anyway, how is this operation performed?

[EDIT: Deleted my comments in light of Banjo providing a link answering this.]

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09-10-2017, 02:07 PM (This post was last modified: 09-10-2017 02:24 PM by SYZ.)
RE: male circumcision of minors should be a felony
(08-10-2017 02:43 PM)Yonadav Kenyon Wrote:  Opposition to circumcision is invariably a pretext for anti religious types to attack religion. Invariably, the attack on religion becomes an attack on Jews in general.

Nope. This is nonsense. The opposition to circumcision comes largely from practising, 21st-century clinicians, and also medical academia—neither of which are influenced by absurd, outdated, potentially dangerous religious directives.

Your claim relies on false equivalence, that is: Opposition to circumcision = atheism. Which is obviously bullshit, as both Catholics and Anglicans also decry the practise. It appears that you have a hatred of atheists, which makes me wonder why you're even here. Just trying to stir the pot to get your rocks off maybe?

I'm also unsure what you mean exactly by "anti-religious types"? Do you mean atheists? And I'm also assuming you're Jewish—judging by your overly-defensive attitude in favour of circumcision.

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09-10-2017, 02:40 PM
RE: male circumcision of minors should be a felony
(09-10-2017 12:28 PM)Yonadav Kenyon Wrote:  
(09-10-2017 12:18 PM)adey67 Wrote:  That's cool, thankyou for the explanation much appreciated Thumbsup

You'r welcome. I just saw your earlier post it which you remarked on my condescending tone. I apologize if my tone seemed to be condescending, because I didn't mean for it to be.

No problem, my start here was less than brilliant I'm far from perfect, this forum can be somewhat combative at times but no matter, no need to apologise but its kind of you to do so, peace in all things Smile
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09-10-2017, 02:51 PM (This post was last modified: 09-10-2017 03:05 PM by adey67.)
RE: male circumcision of minors should be a felony
(09-10-2017 12:38 PM)Aliza Wrote:  
(09-10-2017 12:16 PM)Yonadav Kenyon Wrote:  Sucking the blood is described as part of the procedure in the Talmud. The Talmudic reasoning was basically that it was for hygiene. They probably weren't completely wrong, since doctors didn't sanitize their surgical knives until the late nineteenth century. The saliva might have given some protection against the unsanitized blade, but at the cost of possibly transmitting a disease from the mohel to the baby. Jewish laws are either Rabbinic in origin, or they are Divine commandments written in the bible. There is also a third category called halakha l'Moshe m'Sinai. Sucking the blood appears to be Rabbinic rather than d'oreisa or halakha l'Moshe m'Sinai, and that makes it easier to stop following in accordance with it, provided compelling enough reasons to do so. The spread of infection from the mohel was compelling enough for most Jewish communities to stop doing it. But circumcision itself would be impossible to stop, since it is explicitly commanded on the eighth day in the bible.

^^^ Basically this. I was working on an explanation, but Yonadav Kenyon's post sums it up well. The intention was to remove by suction any blood in the area to prevent clotting. 2,000 years ago, it was decided suctioning out the wound was the safest thing for the baby, and the logical way to do this was to suction it out orally.

It's disgusting, but it's not pedophilia. Come on, people.

The Rabbinic tradition does not specify how the wound should be suctioned, only that it should be suctioned and cleaned. Today we use sterile gauze and sponges to clean the area, and most everyone I've ever known to order a bris for their baby chooses a Rabbi who is also a medical doctor. There is a small percentage of the Jewish population that still does this orally, but enacting legislation to stop it has been wholly ineffective. The best method to stop this is through education from within the Jewish community.

You guys can stand on your heads all day long, Jewish community will not change because of anything you say, do, or demonstrate. The change must come from within.

I understand, ironically I didn't think of it as paedophillia just as a health hazard to the child not unlike yourself. Don't forget I was cut aged 9 and although very painful at the time I realise it may well have saved me from HIV infection tbh. I wish all ritual circs were done under anaesthesia though that's my other issue.
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09-10-2017, 02:51 PM
RE: male circumcision of minors should be a felony
(09-10-2017 12:38 PM)Aliza Wrote:  I was working on an explanation, but Yonadav Kenyon's post sums it up well. The intention was to remove by suction any blood in the area to prevent clotting. 2,000 years ago, it was decided suctioning out the wound was the safest thing for the baby, and the logical way to do this was to suction it out orally...

It's interesting to note that whenever I (and others here?) accidentally cut myself working in the garden or workshop, the very first thing I do is to instinctively suck the blood from the wound. This is for two reasons, apparently. Human saliva triggers coagulation, and sucking out the blood removes any potentially harmful microorganisms. Both reasons I'm guessing are what originally prompted the mohalim to suck the penis after circumcision.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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09-10-2017, 03:06 PM
RE: male circumcision of minors should be a felony
(09-10-2017 02:51 PM)SYZ Wrote:  
(09-10-2017 12:38 PM)Aliza Wrote:  I was working on an explanation, but Yonadav Kenyon's post sums it up well. The intention was to remove by suction any blood in the area to prevent clotting. 2,000 years ago, it was decided suctioning out the wound was the safest thing for the baby, and the logical way to do this was to suction it out orally...

It's interesting to note that whenever I (and others here?) accidentally cut myself working in the garden or workshop, the very first thing I do is to instinctively suck the blood from the wound. This is for two reasons, apparently. Human saliva triggers coagulation, and sucking out the blood removes any potentially harmful microorganisms. Both reasons I'm guessing are what originally prompted the mohalim to suck the penis after circumcision.

I'm not familiar with the mechanics of this, but the logic behind what you described is exactly why the practice was started 2,000 years ago. Never the less, it's antiquated. It's contained to very small communities, and the only reason they refuse to change is because of tradition and not because of a religious mandate.

The Jewish law basically boils down to cutting and cleaning the wound. We can do a much better job today using sterile equipment. It's poor education and fear of outsiders that prevents these communities from reexamining this practice.

The mayor of New York mandated that consent forms had to be filled out to do this ritual, but people blindly signed them not understanding and carried on with their traditions. Clearly legislation isn't the answer. The people in these communities don't trust outsiders anyway. The people who are in a position to make this stop are people like me who understand the culture and the tradition. Jews practicing medicine in the New York area do have significant and effective campaigns to educate the population and the practice of oral suction is being questioned, and it is being talked about in the Jewish community.
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