male circumcision of minors should be a felony
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21-05-2016, 07:35 PM
RE: male circumcision of minors should be a felony
(21-05-2016 06:15 PM)BnW Wrote:  
(21-05-2016 01:40 PM)Vosur Wrote:  Just like clockwork. There's always that one person who shows up when male circumcision is mentioned to try to justify the blatant double standard in the US. Guess what, whether or not it's detrimental is completely irrelevant. The point is that human beings have the right to bodily autonomy and integrity in our society and that male infants have been deprived of these rights for a long time.

It can only be a double standard if the two things are equivalent, and they're not. As a secondary point, I didn't try to justify anything. I didn't really make any comment on the actual topic. I just asked a question and made a comment on the false equivalency of the two things.

As for the argument itself, I'm ambivalent. I think the consent argument falls short as parents decide consent for their children on a host of topics, so I'm not sure why this one is any different. I do find the "do no harm " argument somewhat compelling but the idea it should be a felony, much less a crime, seems a tad extreme.

I was raised Jewish so I admittedly have my own biases on this topic. If my kids have sons and don't get them circumcised they certainly won't hear any complaints from me about it, but I equally won't be upset if they do. I concede, though, that I have not taken a lot of time to consider the "don't do it " position.
You can't make this stuff up. The one guy who wants to keep circumcision legal was raised Jewish and did the same thing to his kids. Here's an idea: Maybe next time you should thoroughly consider the "Don't do it" position before you decide to violate your children's bodily autonomy. I don't doubt that you're having a hard time accepting circumcision as wrong considering that it would require you to admit that you made a horrible mistake. The double standard is that female infants are granted the right to bodily integrity while male infants are not. The extent to which this right is violated is, again, completely irrelevant because the law forbids any and all female circumcision methods, even those that are equally or less severe than their male counterparts.

Americans probably aren't aware of this by and large, but circumcising non-religious people as a matter of standard practice is virtually unheard of outside of America (e.g. in Germany it is only practiced by Muslims and Jews). The reason why Christians in the US started doing it is because doctors wanted to stop people from masturbating. True story. The reason people still do it today is because of tradition.



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21-05-2016, 07:45 PM (This post was last modified: 21-05-2016 07:50 PM by Dom.)
RE: male circumcision of minors should be a felony
(21-05-2016 01:26 PM)BnW Wrote:  Is there any evidence that it's actually detrimental?

Also, I don't think it's fair to compare it to female genital mutilation. Cutting off a girl's clitoris so she can't experience pleasure during sex is simply not the same as cutting off the foreskin of the penis.

I agree, it doesn't quite compare. Removing the clit is like chopping off your whole wiener.

Females without clitoris can still experience orgasm, but a much lesser one and it's much harder to obtain.

Males without penis can too, via anal penetration, but again, it's a different thing altogether.

Detrimental - depends on your definition. You are removing the protective sheath of one of your most vulnerable parts. You are exposing sensitive skin that should have been covered. You are decreasing sensitivity by removing a part that hosts nerve endings. You are making masturbation without lubrication difficult at best. You are removing the thing that pulls the skin on your penis tight when penetrating, further reducing sensitivity. There are no health benefits, it is now exposed to chafing clothes and allergens.

It's designed to prevent masturbation and playing with it - cleaning it when foreskin is present requires some short manipulation which can lead to naughty thoughts.

It's all about masturbation.

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21-05-2016, 07:51 PM
RE: male circumcision of minors should be a felony
(21-05-2016 07:45 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(21-05-2016 01:26 PM)BnW Wrote:  Is there any evidence that it's actually detrimental?

Also, I don't think it's fair to compare it to female genital mutilation. Cutting off a girl's clitoris so she can't experience pleasure during sex is simply not the same as cutting off the foreskin of the penis.

I agree, it doesn't quite compare. Removing the clit is like chopping off your whole wiener.

Females without clitoris can still experience orgasm, but a much lesser one and it's much harder to obtain.

Males without penis can too, via anal penetration, but again, it's a different thing altogether.

Detrimental - depends on your definition. You are removing the protective sheath of one of your most vulnerable parts. You are exposing sensitive skin that should have been covered. You are decreasing sensitivity by removing a part that hosts nerve endings. You are making masturbation without lubrication difficult at best. You are removing the thing that pulls the skin on your penis tight when penetrating, further reducing sensitivity. There are no health benefits, it is now exposed to chafing clothes and allergens.

It's designed to prevent masturbation and playing with it - and cleaning it when foreskin is present requires some short manipulation which can lead to naughty thoughts.

It's all about masturbation.


Well that is the thing there are various types of Female Circumcision most of which are not full amputation. Some are exactly comparable to male circumcision in that it trims back the hood to expose the clitoris. However all the Anti-FGM laws passed ban all forms while at the same time going out of their way to allow Male Circumcision (even the same procedure) to remain lawful.

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21-05-2016, 07:51 PM
RE: male circumcision of minors should be a felony
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevalence...rcumcision
Got any EVIDENCE to support those ASSertions, sport ?

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21-05-2016, 08:07 PM
RE: male circumcision of minors should be a felony
So as the obvious them being referred to here, I really do think I can appreciate how others view circumcision. I have a clear cultural bias here, but if I replace male circumcision with female genital mutilation, I gain some new perspective.

I think female genital mutilation is wrong, harmful and that it must be stopped, but I expect people are not doing it to harm their daughters. I think they do it out of a desire to adhere to cultural tradition, and to ensure that their daughters will be seen as a suitable marriage partner in a culture which expects this. I’m sure they believe that securing a good marriage for their daughters will ensure that their daughters will cared for in their adult lives.

Naturally, I think this is the wrong way to treat their daughters, but I don’t think it’s criminal. I certainly don’t think these parents should be put to death.

I’m willing to bet that these families would respond very positively to reeducation or some sort of incentive program which is paid for through donations to ensure a more comfortable lifestyle if they opt against doing this horrible thing to their daughters. But pulling something like this off is going to take a lot of money. A lot of our money.

I would put money into a program like that. I really do think it's important to change this, but trying to force people to comply with my views and go against their religious views is probably not the best approach. Education and lifestyle change would be the best way to curb and eventually stop this practice.
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21-05-2016, 08:26 PM
RE: male circumcision of minors should be a felony
Circumcision : https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/cir...ience-say/

Female genital mutilation : http://www.who.int/reproductivehealth/to...es_toc/en/

They are not comparable.

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21-05-2016, 08:38 PM
RE: male circumcision of minors should be a felony
(21-05-2016 08:07 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Education and lifestyle change would be the best way to curb and eventually stop this practice.

Life style change through education is always the best way. It usually takes several generations to bear fruit, though.

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21-05-2016, 08:52 PM
RE: male circumcision of minors should be a felony
(21-05-2016 08:26 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Circumcision : https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/cir...ience-say/

Female genital mutilation : http://www.who.int/reproductivehealth/to...es_toc/en/

They are not comparable.

They are both genital mutilation and they both result in reduction of sexual pleasure.

There, I just compared them. Drinking Beverage

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21-05-2016, 08:54 PM
RE: male circumcision of minors should be a felony
(21-05-2016 08:07 PM)Aliza Wrote:  So as the obvious them being referred to here, I really do think I can appreciate how others view circumcision. I have a clear cultural bias here, but if I replace male circumcision with female genital mutilation, I gain some new perspective.

Your perspective would be enhanced by replacing 'circumcision' with 'male genital mutilation'. Drinking Beverage

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21-05-2016, 09:01 PM
RE: male circumcision of minors should be a felony
If it ain't for a medical reason, I find the hacking of any child's genitalia to be reprehensible. They aren't perfect comparisons -- FGM is a practice designed to reinforce patriarchy by controlling a woman's sexuality, while circumcision (though having sexual-repression overtones) doesn't exist as a matter of gender-control. Having said that, I agree with the principle that no infant deserves mutillation, to any degree.
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