male circumcision of minors should be a felony
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13-10-2017, 03:04 AM
RE: male circumcision of minors should be a felony
(13-10-2017 12:43 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  Back on topic. I'm ignoring any and all religious aspects in this post.

The important thing here, to me, is not whether there are medical benefits. I appreciate that there are indeed potential benefits. The question is whether these are worth the risks that the procedure brings, both immediately and in the long term. This should surely be the case for any medical procedure. If the risks outweigh the benefits, or if there isn't much in it, then the procedure is highly suspect and people should be advised against it.

Do any medical organizations state that these benefits are worth the risk? I would think that if the medical field agreed that they are, they would recommend this procedure to all parents. If such a statement can't be made and medically backed up, then why are the parents being given the choice? Why isn't the child instead being protected against an unfounded procedure?

I appreciate that there will always be a certain amount of subjectivity when comparing benefits to risks. But handing this over to the parents with regard to hacking off bits of their baby doesn't seem like the way to go about things.

Its a tricky question as far as I can tell the only reasons in the Western world to perform circumcision is irreducible para phimosis intractable phimosis and intractable balanitis. There is evidence from WHO that circumcision can reduce HIV infection by as much as 60% but condom use would work better and it would only really be justifiable in sub Saharan Africa where HIV infection rates are very high condoms may be out of date or not available and HIV medication unobtainable at a low price. Many phimosis can be relieved by manual manipulation under anaesthesia and a course of steroid cream and most balanitis by antibiotic therapy. Phimosis in children frequently resolves spontaneously by adulthood too.
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19-10-2017, 05:58 PM
RE: male circumcision of minors should be a felony
[Image: foreskin.jpg]

You have to be odd to be #1.
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23-10-2017, 06:54 AM
RE: male circumcision of minors should be a felony
(13-10-2017 03:04 AM)adey67 Wrote:  
(13-10-2017 12:43 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  Back on topic. I'm ignoring any and all religious aspects in this post.

The important thing here, to me, is not whether there are medical benefits. I appreciate that there are indeed potential benefits. The question is whether these are worth the risks that the procedure brings, both immediately and in the long term. This should surely be the case for any medical procedure. If the risks outweigh the benefits, or if there isn't much in it, then the procedure is highly suspect and people should be advised against it.

Do any medical organizations state that these benefits are worth the risk? I would think that if the medical field agreed that they are, they would recommend this procedure to all parents. If such a statement can't be made and medically backed up, then why are the parents being given the choice? Why isn't the child instead being protected against an unfounded procedure?

I appreciate that there will always be a certain amount of subjectivity when comparing benefits to risks. But handing this over to the parents with regard to hacking off bits of their baby doesn't seem like the way to go about things.

Its a tricky question as far as I can tell the only reasons in the Western world to perform circumcision is irreducible para phimosis intractable phimosis and intractable balanitis. There is evidence from WHO that circumcision can reduce HIV infection by as much as 60% but condom use would work better and it would only really be justifiable in sub Saharan Africa where HIV infection rates are very high condoms may be out of date or not available and HIV medication unobtainable at a low price. Many phimosis can be relieved by manual manipulation under anaesthesia and a course of steroid cream and most balanitis by antibiotic therapy. Phimosis in children frequently resolves spontaneously by adulthood too.

Athlete's foot presents a similar "tricky" question since it can be eliminated by removal of toes at birth.
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23-10-2017, 07:36 AM
RE: male circumcision of minors should be a felony
(23-10-2017 06:54 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  
(13-10-2017 03:04 AM)adey67 Wrote:  Its a tricky question as far as I can tell the only reasons in the Western world to perform circumcision is irreducible para phimosis intractable phimosis and intractable balanitis. There is evidence from WHO that circumcision can reduce HIV infection by as much as 60% but condom use would work better and it would only really be justifiable in sub Saharan Africa where HIV infection rates are very high condoms may be out of date or not available and HIV medication unobtainable at a low price. Many phimosis can be relieved by manual manipulation under anaesthesia and a course of steroid cream and most balanitis by antibiotic therapy. Phimosis in children frequently resolves spontaneously by adulthood too.

Athlete's foot presents a similar "tricky" question since it can be eliminated by removal of toes at birth.
Trouble is as I pointed out to another person here who made a similar false equivalence athletes foot doesn't have the potential to cause loss of circulation to the toes in a normal healthy individual where as untreated paraphimosis definitely does have the potential to compromise circulation to the head of the penis. How on earth people are not understanding this fairly simple fact is tbh quite scary.
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23-10-2017, 11:19 AM
RE: male circumcision of minors should be a felony
Also Delta if you read the post you quoted again whereabouts did I ever suggest that a foreskin should be removed as a preventative measure for medical conditions? I was even circumspect (no pun intended) as to the justification of it to prevent HIV in sub Saharan Africa. It seems that no matter how hard I work to be explicit that I am not in favour of unnecessary and non medical circumcision that the inference keeps on being drawn.
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23-10-2017, 12:43 PM (This post was last modified: 23-10-2017 12:48 PM by Deltabravo.)
RE: male circumcision of minors should be a felony
I am aware of the arguments both for and against circumcision on medical grounds and in relation to the HIV epidemic in Africa.

Throughout North America, for many decades, doctors routinely circumcised. In Europe, on the other hand, doctors routinely do not circumcise. There's no evidence at all that European males have suffered in any way from this. It's unheard of, a complete red herring. If any condition arises for any male child then the appropriate medical route is to diagnose and treat that child, not to adopt a nationwide policy of body mutilation.

I was born into a society where all males were circumcised but being of European descent, I wasn't. Just imagine if you are a woman and you have a flap over each of your nipples which no other female has.

It's hard enough being male and having women say things like "Yuck, organs hanging on the outside of your body". As a child I had a baby sitter, the guy next door, talk me into showing him my dick because, I realized some time later, all the other kids had noticed that I was a "freak". Women get all hung up about the size of their boobs but men must "get over it". Think about the trauma of living in a society where TV shows make fun of men and women body-shame men who are anatomically correct but are different in such an intimate part of their body, eg., Seinfeld.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sH2Jg5soZig

Try to get the courage to ask a girl on a date after watching that.

Circumcision is some kind of ancient phallic ritual which made its way into modern society through the back door of bad medicine and still has not died out for some reason, perhaps aesthetics, who knows.
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23-10-2017, 03:25 PM
RE: male circumcision of minors should be a felony
Circumcision for paraphimosis is not bad medicine my friend its a penis saving measure for some.
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23-10-2017, 07:06 PM
RE: male circumcision of minors should be a felony
never mind ...

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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27-10-2017, 08:21 AM
RE: male circumcision of minors should be a felony
(21-05-2016 11:01 AM)ImFred Wrote:  I don't even think punishable by death is too strong. Mutilating a person's penis without their consent is unjustifiable.

Agreed. What's weird is to see Christians coming out with strongly worded rebukes against female genital mutilation, but as soon as circumcision gets mentioned, the special pleading is dragged out. They can't let go of the cultural/Biblical baggage.
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