national communist
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
22-09-2015, 07:34 AM
RE: national communist
(22-09-2015 07:30 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(22-09-2015 07:12 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  My main problem was with you saying that Marx ideas changed the world and that should count for something. I think so too, but I think one can't ascribe him only good things (as I assumed such change you have spoken about was positive) without making clear that whatever negative came from his ideas was also thanks to him.

Einstein's ideas changed the world. Newton's too for that matter. People can't be held responsible for what other people do with their ideas.

You say they can't I say they can. It seems we are at an impasse here.

Or maybe if positive things are ascribed to one ideas negative should also, i.e. (not trying to be historically acurate) thanks to Marx ideas we have 8 hours work day and marxism-leninism.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-09-2015, 07:41 AM
RE: national communist
Thanks to Einstein we have nuclear weapons. Should he not have investigated? Should we shut down research for fear of the consequences? After all, we could still be living an idyllic existence as hunter-gatherers if those pesky agriculturalists hadn't got farming up and running. It's more or less their fault that wars happened in the past. Without a large population you just can't *go* to war.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes morondog's post
22-09-2015, 07:45 AM
RE: national communist
(22-09-2015 07:12 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Poland too had quite long experience with communism or let's call it soviet style socialism, cause communism as I often heard wasn't achieved. And our perspective is certainly different; Marx isn't seen here in any kind of positive light (in most cases), though he is somewhat important historical figure. Bad but important.

Well, that may be the problem right there. Communists in Greece were never powerful. They were always prosecuted, executed, exiled and tortured. Many of the most important Greek people of the previous century were communists. Our culture is partly built on it, even though we never even had anything close to socialism. You were probably taught how bad "communism" was for Poland or you may personally have had bad experiences because of it.

There's still a very negative attitude against communists here, but Marx isn't such a bad figure.

Anyway what I'm trying to say is that our experiences and even the way we were brought up makes us see things differently. You may see Marx as causing the deaths of millions through Stalin, but I see him forming a strong idea that many people here defended to their deaths, an idea that produced not only exceptional art, but also brave soldiers who fought to make my country better. Even up to this day, communists are the ones who fight against the government most passionately and achieve things that make my own life better.

(22-09-2015 07:12 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Also I don't exactly blame him for what happened in USSR but rather for making something that could apparently be easilly used by dictators. It's more than possible that I wasn't clear in this.

Almost anything can be easily used by dictators. That doesn't really say much. Words can be twisted and adjusted to one's personal interests very easily and this has happened more than once in history.

(22-09-2015 07:12 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  My main problem was with you saying that Marx ideas changed the world and that should count for something. I think so too, but I think one can't ascribe him only good things (as I assumed such change you have spoken about was positive) without making clear that whatever negative came from his ideas was also thanks to him.

As I've mentioned before, philosophers have their faults too. Nobody is perfect. I never said Marx was perfect or that we should only ascribe him good things, far from it. You have things to blame him for, I have things to thank him for, and that's alright. But I can't go as far as to say that he mainly caused harm and that this makes him a bad philosopher or an unimportant historical figure. That's all.

"Behind every great pirate, there is a great butt."
-Guybrush Threepwood-
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-09-2015, 07:47 AM
RE: national communist
(22-09-2015 07:41 AM)morondog Wrote:  Thanks to Einstein we have nuclear weapons. Should he not have investigated? Should we shut down research for fear of the consequences? After all, we could still be living an idyllic existence as hunter-gatherers if those pesky agriculturalists hadn't got farming up and running. It's more or less their fault that wars happened in the past. Without a large population you just can't *go* to war.

Wow, you just opened my eyes Rolleyes

Seriously though I have written what I felt was relevant to the topic and your sarcasm isn't convincing me that Marx wasn't in some way responsible for marxism-leninism.

For me it is simple - if we agree that thanks to his ideas something good happened then how we can deny that thanks to the same ideas some bad things happened?

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Szuchow's post
22-09-2015, 07:56 AM
RE: national communist
I do not *deny* that Marx's ideas resulted in crappy communism. I don't then say "But Marx shouldn't have thought those things then"... How could he foresee it?

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes morondog's post
22-09-2015, 08:07 AM (This post was last modified: 22-09-2015 08:12 AM by Szuchow.)
RE: national communist
(22-09-2015 07:45 AM)undergroundp Wrote:  Well, that may be the problem right there. Communists in Greece were never powerful. They were always prosecuted, executed, exiled and tortured. Many of the most important Greek people of the previous century were communists. Our culture is partly built on it, even though we never even had anything close to socialism.

Communists in The Second Polish Republic were persecuted or I would rather say "persecuted" and their party was delegalized at some point. After the WWII stalinist gov was installed in Poland, forcibly but not without some support from populace.

(22-09-2015 07:45 AM)undergroundp Wrote:  You were probably taught how bad "communism" was for Poland or you may personally have had bad experiences because of it.

I was taught, yes but you seem to imply that what I was taught is somewhat false. It is not, thanks to "brotherly union" with USSR Poland is stunted economically and it is least of harms that said alliance have brought on my country.

So no, I wasn't taught - as in exposed to propaganda - I just see the results. Also there is no shortage of objective literature. Biassed books exists too to be sure.

(22-09-2015 07:45 AM)undergroundp Wrote:  There's still a very negative attitude against communists here, but Marx isn't such a bad figure.

Here there is negative attitude in regards to communism and also to Marx.

(22-09-2015 07:45 AM)undergroundp Wrote:  Anyway what I'm trying to say is that our experiences and even the way we were brought up makes us see things differently. You may see Marx as causing the deaths of millions through Stalin, but I see him forming a strong idea that many people here defended to their deaths, an idea that produced not only exceptional art, but also brave soldiers who fought to make my country better. Even up to this day, communists are the ones who fight against the government most passionately and achieve things that make my own life better.

We certainly see things differently. I see Marx as being partly responsible for creation of marxism-leninism but if I remember right in no post I said that his idea was weak or that no one thought it worth fighting for.

Though to be fair people willing to fight for some idea don't mean much to me and it don't speak that such idea is good; it only show magnetism of such idea nothing more. I would say we can't judge something only on merit of how much people fight for it or how bravely they do it.

(22-09-2015 07:45 AM)undergroundp Wrote:  Almost anything can be easily used by dictators. That doesn't really say much. Words can be twisted and adjusted to one's personal interests very easily and this has happened more than once in history.

Certainly. Yet I would say it's hard to kill in name of personal freedom and tolerance for others viewpoints.

(22-09-2015 07:45 AM)undergroundp Wrote:  As I've mentioned before, philosophers have their faults too. Nobody is perfect. I never said Marx was perfect or that we should only ascribe him good things, far from it.

Then it was probably misinterpretation on my part.

(22-09-2015 07:45 AM)undergroundp Wrote:  You have things to blame him for, I have things to thank him for, and that's alright. But I can't go as far as to say that he mainly caused harm and that this makes him a bad philosopher or an unimportant historical figure. That's all.

Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems to me that I also didn't said that he was unimportant or bad philosopher. Also while I - in small part - blame him for marxism-leninism I think his observation on religion were spot on.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-09-2015, 08:11 AM (This post was last modified: 22-09-2015 08:18 AM by Szuchow.)
RE: national communist
(22-09-2015 07:56 AM)morondog Wrote:  I do not *deny* that Marx's ideas resulted in crappy communism. I don't then say "But Marx shouldn't have thought those things then"... How could he foresee it?

Maybe I have some problem with communication so I'll try to simplify it:

If not for Marx then we would not have marxism-leninism. Maybe there would be something worse, maybe not, who knows. Maybe even engels-leninism.

I do not blame him for Soviet tragedy but if not for him there would be no marxism-leninism, which mean that Soviet tragedy with m-l in central spot wouldn't have happen.

Hope it doesn't sound strange/idiotic.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-09-2015, 08:22 AM
RE: national communist
(22-09-2015 08:11 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  
(22-09-2015 07:56 AM)morondog Wrote:  I do not *deny* that Marx's ideas resulted in crappy communism. I don't then say "But Marx shouldn't have thought those things then"... How could he foresee it?

Maybe I have some problem with communication so I'll try to simplify it:

If not for Marx then we would not have marxism-leninism. Maybe there would be something worse, maybe not, who knows.

I do not blame him for Soviet tragedy but if not for him there would be no marxism-leninism, which mean there could not be said tragedy.

Well, but if not for Einstein we wouldn't have nuclear weapons...

Although I am reading on Wikipedia about Marx now and he wasn't all sweetness and light.

There would have been another tragedy if he wasn't there though, IMO. Just different slogans.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes morondog's post
22-09-2015, 08:26 AM
RE: national communist
(22-09-2015 08:22 AM)morondog Wrote:  Well, but if not for Einstein we wouldn't have nuclear weapons...

Possible. But there could be someone other who would be thanked/cursed for it.

(22-09-2015 08:22 AM)morondog Wrote:  Although I am reading on Wikipedia about Marx now and he wasn't all sweetness and light.

He wasn't. Just as about any historical figure.

(22-09-2015 08:22 AM)morondog Wrote:  There would have been another tragedy if he wasn't there though, IMO. Just different slogans.

It's more than possible, it's not like Russia was in the best of states during the course of war.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-09-2015, 09:21 AM
RE: national communist
Marx can be the best guy in the world but his ideas are utopia - only for perfect(ideal) people. There is no such thing as "perfect(ideal) people" on this Earth.
His works(fantasies) belong to garbage in my opinion.
But there are some naïve DREAMERS in this world who admire Marx. dreams, dreams, dreams.

English is my second language.
I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: