(near) death experiences, heaven, hell, nirvana
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08-05-2012, 02:08 PM
RE: (near) death experiences, heaven, hell, nirvana
(08-05-2012 07:49 AM)Filox Wrote:  Well, I think it was my hallucinations and drugs, because I was on a high dose of highly hallucinogenic and relaxing drug - the ketamine. Thus my half sleep state with hallucinations. BUT! I do not rule out the first opinion you have stated. Since I (or anyone else) have no evidence whatsoever to support this, I do not mention this, but there is that possibility.

It is also very possible that it was all just a hallucination, half dream, half previous memories of me walking around the house, so it just connected, because at that moment I wanted to move, but I was completely parallelized, so my mind moved instead... A great experience in any case, it was really hard to convince my friends what has happened to me.
Yes, it's all plausible except the little fact that the body got left behind when you walked around the house. There is no obvious reason why should our brain make such a special effort to imagine the body from the outside left behind sleeping. There however must be a reason, if it's such a widespread phenomenon. Some weird shit may happen in a dream, but when we have OOBE we should see our room, bed and meatbag lying peacefully without any intruding impossible dream phenomena.

I'd believe it's a dream or hallucination if that body would be moving or talking, as some kind of Jungian or Freudian symbol of alter-ego, evil twin, inner child or something. But in all these years I've never seen myself from the outside in a dream except once on my bed during OOBE. And once in a dream I looked into the mirror. (surprisingly, I had a bit longer hair and no glasses)
This is why I think it's strange, to see ourselves sleeping is as impossible as to see ourselves dead. Epicuros said something like when I am here, death is not. When death is here, I am not.

OK, whatever. I just really really want to believe Blush

(08-05-2012 07:49 AM)Filox Wrote:  Wanna hear my story when I grew to be 15 meters high? Both me and my friend that was with me, exactly the same feeling, as we got out of the car and stood up, we just continued to "stand up" until we were high as the big palm trees near us. We were walking like 2 huge giants and looking down on all the little people... Now this was thanx to some speed (paste) and mikron (acid, but in a micro dot, not blotter). I just love my experiments, specially if someone else has the same trip, at least I don't have to explain myself to the person I am with...

Big Grin
LOL, this definitely must be a hallucination. There is nothing in my esoteric books about that Smile
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09-05-2012, 12:53 AM
RE: (near) death experiences, heaven, hell, nirvana
Well now, this means I was in my astral state back then. Nice, I am an astral spirit, now all I need is to wake my Avatar state and rule you all.

Smile

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09-05-2012, 03:23 AM
RE: (near) death experiences, heaven, hell, nirvana
(09-05-2012 12:53 AM)Filox Wrote:  Well now, this means I was in my astral state back then. Nice, I am an astral spirit, now all I need is to wake my Avatar state and rule you all.

Smile
Yeah, pretty much, but not as the New Age movement makes people think. Astral body is the emotional equipment that was already developed during animal evolution. People idealize all things astral as something high & spiritual, not realizing it is something we share with our cats and dogs. Now, control over the astral body (emotionality), that's something different and very rare.

As for being an avatar, you'd have to be one already. Or incarnate to another planet and be an avatar there. My sources say India is their headquarters, where they can sit along roads as eccentric beggar yogis without bothering with earthly culture and work morale.
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09-05-2012, 05:21 AM
RE: (near) death experiences, heaven, hell, nirvana
Uh-oh. Lumi's fluffiness is spreading. Big Grin

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09-05-2012, 05:54 AM (This post was last modified: 09-05-2012 05:58 AM by Leela.)
RE: (near) death experiences, heaven, hell, nirvana
About out of body experience: Not going to believe it until there has been proper research about it. Knowing what some people said while you where supposedly (near)dead can be easily explained. We lose conscienceness but we still get some things. I am pretty sure that we still hear, even if we are not able to respond. For example when you are dreaming you still hear things, or when you are in deep meditative states, you still hear things. And, although I am no professional, I think when we are not conscious, we still hear, and our brain does the rest. A feeling of being all light and without a body, yeah, nerves play crazy. Seeing yourself from above. Hear what your brain is most likely to do:
You know your own face from the mirror, you know what someone looks like who is laying down or sleeping. brain combines both pictures + adds all the sounds around you, there you get a picture completely generated in your brain.

About contact to dead people/disembodied people: Same, also not being proofed by science, yet. Personal experience does not count, because the mind does great leaps. When I was into all that, I thought I had contact to disembodied people/dead people/ghosts/spirits. Your mind does whatever you make it do, espcially in meditative states. You WANT to believe that you can get in contact with these, you train your mind into giving you the sensation of what you think it should be in that moment. A chill? There we go, your brain gives you a chill, when you think there is a ghost Wink Works so easy, but that way you also brainwash yourself into believing it because now you felt it.

Quote:My sources say....
I remember when you kept telling me about "your sources" and every single source that you presented was useless because there was no science involved whatsoever. Either get your "sources" straight or stop quoting them.
Sorry I am allergic to that just as much as people quoting the bible, which I also do not accept, and nor do the majority of members in this forum (active members of course).

"Freedom is the freedom to say that 2+2=4" - George Orwell (in 1984)
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09-05-2012, 06:34 AM
RE: (near) death experiences, heaven, hell, nirvana
(09-05-2012 05:54 AM)Leela Wrote:  About out of body experience: Not going to believe it until there has been proper research about it. Knowing what some people said while you where supposedly (near)dead can be easily explained. We lose conscienceness but we still get some things. I am pretty sure that we still hear, even if we are not able to respond. For example when you are dreaming you still hear things, or when you are in deep meditative states, you still hear things. And, although I am no professional, I think when we are not conscious, we still hear, and our brain does the rest. A feeling of being all light and without a body, yeah, nerves play crazy. Seeing yourself from above. Hear what your brain is most likely to do:
You know your own face from the mirror, you know what someone looks like who is laying down or sleeping. brain combines both pictures + adds all the sounds around you, there you get a picture completely generated in your brain.

About contact to dead people/disembodied people: Same, also not being proofed by science, yet. Personal experience does not count, because the mind does great leaps. When I was into all that, I thought I had contact to disembodied people/dead people/ghosts/spirits. Your mind does whatever you make it do, espcially in meditative states. You WANT to believe that you can get in contact with these, you train your mind into giving you the sensation of what you think it should be in that moment. A chill? There we go, your brain gives you a chill, when you think there is a ghost Wink Works so easy, but that way you also brainwash yourself into believing it because now you felt it.

Quote:My sources say....

I remember when you kept telling me about "your sources" and every single source that you presented was useless because there was no science involved whatsoever. Either get your "sources" straight or stop quoting them.
Sorry I am allergic to that just as much as people quoting the bible, which I also do not accept, and nor do the majority of members in this forum (active members of course).


That's what think too. My brain has had almost 30 years of conditioning of George being nearby. It has not gotten used to that not being the case unless I consciously think about him not being there. That is the essence of grieving, I think. You continue to be shocked or "triggered" into the reality of the other person not being there.

There are triggers such as things you used to share that do not occur on a daily basis. Like, I have gotten used to pulling out only one fork and knife at dinner time, at first that was a huge schock every day. Now it has become habit already. But the scent of the lilacs in the garden for instance triggered me big time yesterday. First time I smelled it without him.

So this goes on for at least a year, while you experience each and every thing in your life for the first time alone. Scents, tastes, temperatures, degree of lighting, TV programs, just about anything and everything you used to experience together triggers you. Some things will not trigger anymore after that first time, some will go on for years and some will remain until you die.

That's why they say "time heals", it's really repetition of events that heals.

I am also aware of all the medical aspects of the process of death and saw them too. Including the fact that the person can still hear, because when he would get restless after being not conscious of his surroundings anymore, I would talk to him and he would calm down right away.

The remaining puzzler is what he meant by stepping outside. He was alive for many hours after that, but not interacting with anything in any way, except the calming down physically when I spoke to him.

The people I saw before were drugged heavily, George was not drugged at all. So his behavior was all natural. Most people in hospital environments, where these observations are recorded, are drugged. So I still maintain that other than basic physical symptoms, we don't know shit.

And I still maintain that there is a specific moment, even in very drugged people, where a huge bundle of energy vanishes. Not gradually, but all at once, even when the person is in a coma.

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09-05-2012, 02:36 PM
RE: (near) death experiences, heaven, hell, nirvana
(09-05-2012 05:54 AM)Leela Wrote:  About out of body experience: Not going to believe it until there has been proper research about it. Knowing what some people said while you where supposedly (near)dead can be easily explained. We lose conscienceness but we still get some things. I am pretty sure that we still hear, even if we are not able to respond. For example when you are dreaming you still hear things, or when you are in deep meditative states, you still hear things. And, although I am no professional, I think when we are not conscious, we still hear, and our brain does the rest. A feeling of being all light and without a body, yeah, nerves play crazy. Seeing yourself from above. Hear what your brain is most likely to do:
You know your own face from the mirror, you know what someone looks like who is laying down or sleeping. brain combines both pictures + adds all the sounds around you, there you get a picture completely generated in your brain.
OK, so you say that the brain imagines things, like it has to imagine, fill in the blanks on how we look from above, from behind or sleeping. But why? What psychologic natural need drives the brain to imagine its exterior?

(09-05-2012 05:54 AM)Leela Wrote:  About contact to dead people/disembodied people: Same, also not being proofed by science, yet. Personal experience does not count, because the mind does great leaps. When I was into all that, I thought I had contact to disembodied people/dead people/ghosts/spirits. Your mind does whatever you make it do, espcially in meditative states. You WANT to believe that you can get in contact with these, you train your mind into giving you the sensation of what you think it should be in that moment. A chill? There we go, your brain gives you a chill, when you think there is a ghost Wink Works so easy, but that way you also brainwash yourself into believing it because now you felt it.
I hate to be deceived by anyone, including myself. I am interested in genuine, precise observations, not my own imaginings. By default I distrust all experiences that I expected, wanted or imagined. I count only the unknown, unexpected, unwanted, uninvited. In meditation I clear my mind. There is nothing to imagine, the mind is still. It allowed me to observe things calmly without interfering.
And I DON'T want to get in contact with spirits! I was brought up in distrust towards spiritual contacts. I know a couple of mediums, some are neurotic, some immoral. Voices in head = bad.

Anyway, most of the observations were made out of meditation, in full consciousness. Usually when I lied down to sleep, but I take more than half an hour to get asleep, so there was a plenty of fully aware time to observe, not that I could sleep during the process. Multiply that by months of regular observations.
What process? Imagine, that you can fully feel an ethereal hand on your shoulder. All details of its movement, fingers on your skin, even sleeve of the invisible arm. Let's say that the pair of hands is quite interested in your nerves, in your spinal column and nerve filaments that spread out of it. Let's say it feels like something like a systematic surgery... or maybe a slow, patient and careful sabotage.

(09-05-2012 05:54 AM)Leela Wrote:  I remember when you kept telling me about "your sources" and every single source that you presented was useless because there was no science involved whatsoever. Either get your "sources" straight or stop quoting them.
Sorry I am allergic to that just as much as people quoting the bible, which I also do not accept, and nor do the majority of members in this forum (active members of course).
You have of course the right to be allergic to that. I just want you to realize, that my sources are carefully and personally chosen according to observations, not imposed by someone else like bible. It is one of things we can do when doing science is not possible. You might not realize that, but science is a very cumbersome tool. In some situations we don't have control over the phenomena, we can't repeat them, we have only subjective means to detect them and so on. Therefore, the scientific method becomes impossible. Maybe temporarily, but you know science takes its years.

What should we do in such situations? Stick our heads into the sand? Put fingers into our ears until the unknown goes away? Shut up and wait a few decades till professionals catch up with us? No, this is not what the unholy trinity of Hypatia, Darwin and Hitchens would want us to do. (I know, emotional appeal fallacy) We should make investigations, however limited. The limitation here is not exactly lack of testing, it's rather only subjective or inter-personal testing. It's valid, but only personally or among a group. It's not the testing you want, repeatable anywhere in the world, anytime, with anyone. But still there is a plenty to do. There are personal observations, comparison of sources and other personal accounts, logical analysis, Occam's razor, statistics, intuition and so on.

And why would we do that? Doing anything without science? For selfish reasons, basically. If I have a situation here and now, I'll do what I can do here and now and maybe figure out something over the years.
Most of people have no need to resort to such methods, nothing strange happens to them that they couldn't ignore. What I find strange is the logic, why wait for the rest of humanity to catch up? I'm way too curious for that.
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09-05-2012, 02:56 PM
RE: (near) death experiences, heaven, hell, nirvana
well Luminon, as I said, I am no professional so better not ask me for more explanations, I have to look it up just like you have to if you really wanna find out.

spirits, yes. I used to feel hands and hear things and see things and and and. I was brain washed, just like you seem to be (would need a real life word and look with you, to really have an opinion about this). So yes, in meditative states or near sleep it is quite common to have feel something, it even has a name. Let me look it up quickly...
*a bit later*
can't find that term anymore. but I read it quite a few times that with sleep paralysis there can come the phenomenon to hear or feel things that are not really there >> and also out of body experience. Now when you are not concsious or in a meditative state or in a trance, this can happen as well.

also interesting about out of body here from wiki. Normally I don't like wikipedia so much, but this is quite a nice overview about the topic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out_of_body_experience

Now about the flaw of the scientific method that you mentioned. I am aware of that. Of course it is not perfect but the great advantage of even a experiment or test that did not work, there is proper, scientific paperwork that comes with it. So whoever has the same equipment will be able to try as well or modify.
It is not the same to have a esotheric person with a good reputation who writes down everything they do and experience, and who lines it up with people from the same field. This is only data relevant to other esotheric people. It is completely irrelevant to science because it is never complete enough, never detailed and founded enough. This is why at least I personally have a problem with your sources. You may have carefully chosen them but they are not relevant for anyone outside your belief system. So when you want to make a point you will have to chose sources that are acceptable for everyone, not only because you chose them well, but because they have a relevant scientific backround.

"Freedom is the freedom to say that 2+2=4" - George Orwell (in 1984)
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09-05-2012, 03:58 PM
RE: (near) death experiences, heaven, hell, nirvana
(09-05-2012 02:56 PM)Leela Wrote:  well Luminon, as I said, I am no professional so better not ask me for more explanations, I have to look it up just like you have to if you really wanna find out.

spirits, yes. I used to feel hands and hear things and see things and and and. I was brain washed, just like you seem to be (would need a real life word and look with you, to really have an opinion about this). So yes, in meditative states or near sleep it is quite common to have feel something, it even has a name. Let me look it up quickly...
*a bit later*
can't find that term anymore. but I read it quite a few times that with sleep paralysis there can come the phenomenon to hear or feel things that are not really there >> and also out of body experience. Now when you are not concsious or in a meditative state or in a trance, this can happen as well.

To be precise, my touch perception is a little different than most of people. As a former member of the New Age movement you must surely remember the energies, chakras and so on. Well, and these are highly tangible to me. I was born sensitive to such things, I have memories from very early age. Not much of a big deal, though. It's an equivalent of blood coursing in veins and other kind of organs, almost a physiologic stuff.
So can you imagine my surprise and puzzlement when I encountered some apparently disembodied people? Never before that happened to me. I thought I knew what kind of observations I can expect from my innate sensitivity, but I was wrong.
No, neither sleep nor meditation played any role. I never had a sleep paralysis and I don't get asleep easily. It takes time and some earplugs or even blindfold if there's light. I meditated or slept for years or etherically perceived the surroundings or even enjoyed some very nice trance (I react to music a lot) and nothing like that ever happened. Nothing even remotely so bizarre yet so routine, matter-of-factly. Be assured, I was always ready to raise hell if they'd reach anywhere near my family jewels, screw the scientific observation. I suppose the spirits knew that too Tongue

(09-05-2012 02:56 PM)Leela Wrote:  also interesting about out of body here from wiki. Normally I don't like wikipedia so much, but this is quite a nice overview about the topic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out_of_body_experience
Some of the theories are interesting, some very typical and expectable. I also read all the books by Robert Allan Monroe. He performed the OOBE every night at his will and later founded the Monroe institute. Highly recommended, the books I mean.


(09-05-2012 02:56 PM)Leela Wrote:  Now about the flaw of the scientific method that you mentioned. I am aware of that. Of course it is not perfect but the great advantage of even a experiment or test that did not work, there is proper, scientific paperwork that comes with it. So whoever has the same equipment will be able to try as well or modify.
It is not the same to have a esotheric person with a good reputation who writes down everything they do and experience, and who lines it up with people from the same field. This is only data relevant to other esotheric people. It is completely irrelevant to science because it is never complete enough, never detailed and founded enough. This is why at least I personally have a problem with your sources. You may have carefully chosen them but they are not relevant for anyone outside your belief system. So when you want to make a point you will have to chose sources that are acceptable for everyone, not only because you chose them well, but because they have a relevant scientific backround.
Yes, I see. I'd like to do the science properly, but I'm not equipped for that. So it's just a hobby, although a lifelong one. As much as it is irrelevant to science, it's relevant to my daily life. More than belief system, it's a system of dealing with experience, the past, the present and the future. It's not good for those who don't have the experience to back it up. However, it's good for people who don't like paperwork. I believe it's a frontier of human experience, no wonder the conditions are so primitive.
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10-05-2012, 03:19 AM
RE: (near) death experiences, heaven, hell, nirvana
Quote: I am also aware of all the medical aspects of the process of death and saw them too. Including the fact that the person can still hear, because when he would get restless after being not conscious of his surroundings anymore, I would talk to him and he would calm down right away.



The remaining puzzler is what he meant by stepping outside. He was alive for many hours after that, but not interacting with anything in any way, except the calming down physically when I spoke to him.


This is easily explained by medicine. This depends on the brain function, to be more precise on your level of (un)consciousness, which can be caused by the level of brain damage/trauma. There are 4 stages of coma:

Quote: Plum and Posner classify coma[3] as either (1) supratentoral (above Tentorium cerebelli), (2) infratentoral (below Tentorium cerebelli), or (3) metabolic or (4) diffuse. This classification is merely dependent on the position of the original damage that caused the coma, and does not correlate with severity or the prognosis. The severity of coma impairment however is categorized into several levels. Patients may or may not progress through these levels.
In the first level, the brain responsiveness lessens, normal reflexes are lost, the patient no longer responds to pain and cannot hear.

The Rancho Los Amigos Scale is a complex scale that has eight separate levels, and is often used in
the first few weeks or months of coma while the patient is under closer observation, and when shifts between levels are more frequent.


Here, the first stage is a vegetative state, where a person feel nothing, hears nothing and has no reflexes. The second one is a little "lighter", so the person has reflexes and feels pain. In the third the person can hear things, sleeps and is "awake", but can not interfere with the surroundings, while the forth stage is the one where a person hears, feels, eats, sleeps and can even interact with the surrounding. Last two stages are known as light coma, while the first two are known as heavy coma.

In the last stage when you sneak up on a coma patient and grab him/her by the leg, he would jerk as anyone else when scared suddenly. But if you talk first and he recognizes your voice, you can touch him and he would not react. That means that the person is aware of the surroundings and can understand your words.

I'm not sure did I get these stages 100% right, but you get the picture.

So when a person is unconscious, we can not be sure do they hear us, because we do not know how deep they are under. But if they still have the pain reflex, then they can probably still hear you. Now the question is do they understand the words they are hearing... That can all be tested with those brain-mapping machines, that tell us what parts of brain are active while you talk, play music, touch them...

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