(near) death experiences, heaven, hell, nirvana
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10-05-2012, 05:57 AM
RE: (near) death experiences, heaven, hell, nirvana
@Filox:
That was highly interesting, I will look this up. Thanks Smile How can one be in a coma but still react to the surroundings "normally"? Will look it up Smile

@Luminon:
Quote:No, neither sleep nor meditation played any role. I never had a sleep paralysis and I don't get asleep easily.
First, the nearer to sleep you are, the more likely is it to experience something, because your mind is slipping into sleep. So you can be perfectly aware of your surroundings and think you are completely awake, while your brain is starting to relax and starting to fall asleep.
Second, of course you had a sleep paralysis. pretty much every night. Because otherwise you would move, walk around, touch things, while dreaming. Sleep paralysis is what keeps you from doing all that. And normaly, when you are about to wake up, the paralysis is gone immediately. But there are exceptions of course. All you can judge, is if you have ever had it being awake, and even that you can't judge properly because, as you stated yourself several times, you don't have the proper measuring equipment for such things.

Quote:He performed the OOBE every night at his will
this does not mean that he was indeed out of his body. This only means that he found a technique to feel as if. I can do that, too. Did it plenty of times. Still I don't claim to have been indeed out of my body. But that's just me, my word doesn't really count, because I did not write a book about it Wink

Quote:...it's a system of dealing with experience... It's not good for those who don't have the experience to back it
up. However, it's good for people who don't like paperwork.
Only experience does not count if you want to make a point of it. So the moment you make a claim in a forum like this, you will have to back it up properly. This is one of the things, stated so much around here, personal experience does not count. Even if many people had the same personal experience, it still does not count.
so yes, "it's not good for those who don't have the experience". You totally got the point, now if you state something, act upon this, your, statement and back it up with facts, not with experience.
It is also not important if someone likes paperwork, a claim like this needs the paperwork to start getting even the slightest acceptance. And no, don't say that it is not about that, because if that were so, you wouldn't state unbelievable claims in a forum like this, in the first place. If it is not about having these theories accepted, post them in an esotheric forum where it is most likely that you will not have to justify these claims properly.

"Freedom is the freedom to say that 2+2=4" - George Orwell (in 1984)
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10-05-2012, 11:53 PM
RE: (near) death experiences, heaven, hell, nirvana
Leela, glad you find this interesting, so did I when I first heard of these things. I didn't find the explanations for these "stages of coma", but then again I didn't look for it very much, I based my conclusions on real life stories (as usual) and the explanations I heard from doctors, but I am not sure did I remember it all 100% correct. This one coma patient actually has sleeping periods and awake periods during the day, you can wake him up from his sleep if you shake him (but not from coma), just like any other person. He can get scared, he eats, drinks (not on his own, obviously), he even has his eyes opened while awake. What he can't do is talk, walk, move, communicate with other people, but I am pretty sure he understands us in some strange comatose way. He even moved through all stages of coma during the years, but it is questionable will he ever wake up. You see, moving through stages does not necessary mean that the person is going to wake up, it is all pretty hard and impossible to predict.

Anyway, this coma thing sound horrible, just like you are trapped, you hear, see and understand things, but can't move or wake up, like a prison in a nightmare. Maybe it would be better if the person is not aware of the situation. One can never know...

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17-05-2012, 05:31 PM (This post was last modified: 17-05-2012 05:39 PM by Luminon.)
RE: (near) death experiences, heaven, hell, nirvana
(10-05-2012 05:57 AM)Leela Wrote:  First, the nearer to sleep you are, the more likely is it to experience something, because your mind is slipping into sleep. So you can be perfectly aware of your surroundings and think you are completely awake, while your brain is starting to relax and starting to fall asleep.
Second, of course you had a sleep paralysis. pretty much every night. Because otherwise you would move, walk around, touch things, while dreaming. Sleep paralysis is what keeps you from doing all that. And normaly, when you are about to wake up, the paralysis is gone immediately. But there are exceptions of course. All you can judge, is if you have ever had it being awake, and even that you can't judge properly because, as you stated yourself several times, you don't have the proper measuring equipment for such things.
Be assured, nobody would even think of sleeping in such a circumstances, just like you wouldn't get asleep in a tattoo saloon. I have years of experience sleeping, 365 times a year. I can judge such things properly. Nothing unusual ever happened, besides hypnic jerk. And I'm used to observing my states of consciousness. I'm an introspective guy.
So I'd like to ask, is there any way of becoming a trustworthy authority? That is, known for precise and justified observations? I'm tired of other people cooking up makeshift trivial "explanations". I'd welcome some way to make it obvious that I don't say things without thinking about them first. Do you know anyone like that, someone you can trust what he says no matter what he says?

(10-05-2012 05:57 AM)Leela Wrote:  this does not mean that he was indeed out of his body. This only means that he found a technique to feel as if. I can do that, too. Did it plenty of times. Still I don't claim to have been indeed out of my body. But that's just me, my word doesn't really count, because I did not write a book about it Wink
It was Mr Monroe's opinion that he was indeed out of his body, because as he wrote, he visited his friend in this ghostly form and she later chastised him for scaring her. I think such an experience is a sufficient justification for a personal opinion that OOBE is real.
I have heard rumors of people doing similar things, though I'm not sure I can trust the person who said it... If you're good at OOBE, visit someone you know and later tell them what color and pattern their nightgown has. The resulting reaction will be very convincing and you'll have a plenty of time to practice your OOBE for a taste of freedom, when the police locks you up for stalking Smile

(10-05-2012 05:57 AM)Leela Wrote:  Only experience does not count if you want to make a point of it. So the moment you make a claim in a forum like this, you will have to back it up properly. This is one of the things, stated so much around here, personal experience does not count. Even if many people had the same personal experience, it still does not count.
so yes, "it's not good for those who don't have the experience". You totally got the point, now if you state something, act upon this, your, statement and back it up with facts, not with experience.
It is also not important if someone likes paperwork, a claim like this needs the paperwork to start getting even the slightest acceptance. And no, don't say that it is not about that, because if that were so, you wouldn't state unbelievable claims in a forum like this, in the first place. If it is not about having these theories accepted, post them in an esotheric forum where it is most likely that you will not have to justify these claims properly.
I don't visit many esoteric forums, mainly because there is little new to learn and in most cases they're all about New Age. Basically, I watch out for people who might benefit from my experience or that I could help them make sense of their life, provide an alternate view, learn something from each other and so on. And I do it on rational forums, among other reasons because it needs a lot of critical thinking and challenging debate.

It's not about acceptance, it's about dealing with experience. When you go down the proverbial Alice's rabbit hole you can't take scientific laboratory with you. (not yet anyway) The question is, how far down the rabbit hole are you able to go. And how do you analyze the experience, instead swallowing it whole with hook line and sinker or the extreme opposite, denying all the reality of the experience and adopting an objective, reductionistic worldview. It's like walking a tightrope, objectivistic denial on one side, irrationality on the other. And in between is the narrow path I walk. I walk alone except for people with whom I share experience AND similar standards of personal judgement.



So in your case you've basically (forgive me for putting it that way, but I can't help it) gone so deep down the rabbit hole, that you fell out of the rabbit's mouth Wink Big Grin
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17-05-2012, 05:58 PM
RE: (near) death experiences, heaven, hell, nirvana
(17-05-2012 05:31 PM)Luminon Wrote:  So in your case you've basically (forgive me for putting it that way, but I can't help it) gone so deep down the rabbit hole, that you fell out of the rabbit's mouth Wink Big Grin

Ohmy

Wowzers, Lumi, what a very non-fluffy thing to say. I'm thinking the issue here is you trying to float anecdotal evidence on a skeptic forum, which is pretty much what this is, and about hte best yer gonna get is the "I believe you believe it" line, which sounds pretty patronizing. So... I believe that you believe it. Big Grin

(The devil made me write that! Evil_monster )

I hafta wonder, why here? And who you trying to convince?

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17-05-2012, 08:02 PM
RE: (near) death experiences, heaven, hell, nirvana
Lap fulla Zombie Cat... that's a NDE. He's older than dust, fulla gray hairs, looks at you all myopically and stuff... he follows me around, and makes noise till I sit down so he can climb into my lap and collect some lovin'. The birds are all caught, the chairs are all torn, all that's left to do, is kick back and get some scritchins.

Live and love, I say. After that, who gives a fuck?

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21-05-2012, 09:27 AM
RE: (near) death experiences, heaven, hell, nirvana
Luminon:
Your debate style is faulty, your sources are not trustworthy. You keep ignoring the points made and are too sure of your own judgement.
I will not keep debating anything with you until this changed, because we run in circles.

"Freedom is the freedom to say that 2+2=4" - George Orwell (in 1984)
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21-05-2012, 05:04 PM (This post was last modified: 22-05-2012 04:27 AM by Luminon.)
RE: (near) death experiences, heaven, hell, nirvana
(17-05-2012 05:58 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(17-05-2012 05:31 PM)Luminon Wrote:  So in your case you've basically (forgive me for putting it that way, but I can't help it) gone so deep down the rabbit hole, that you fell out of the rabbit's mouth Wink Big Grin
Ohmy

Wowzers, Lumi, what a very non-fluffy thing to say. I'm thinking the issue here is you trying to float anecdotal evidence on a skeptic forum, which is pretty much what this is, and about hte best yer gonna get is the "I believe you believe it" line, which sounds pretty patronizing. So... I believe that you believe it. Big Grin

(The devil made me write that! Evil_monster )

I hafta wonder, why here? And who you trying to convince?
Yes, the devil made ME write that Tongue My humor is dark, twisted and sometimes blunt. (I think it qualifies as gallows humor, it's very popular here since the commies who replaced nazis were replaced by business mafia) Nobody should take that personally, the "devil's voice" whispers me such jokes and I have urges of sharing them for the sheer joy of literary creativity, (if not for the appreciation) not to offend anyone. Very few people appreciate such a humor. I could blame it on the Asperger's syndrome, but that would be unfair to the devil Evil_monster


Technically, I'm not trying to convince, but to educate. You can get mildly interested even if you don't get convinced. And most importantly I watch out for those who are already convinced, by their own undeniable experience. Such people often contact me and we lead long and useful discussions. Typically, it needs someone who already gravitates to rational thought, feels the need for evidence and is capable of doubting.

There are two purposes. If I see the people don't have sufficient reasons for the conviction, then I try to snap them out of it, to teach them critical thinking and point out where they make hasty or unjustified conclusions. Even when I actually believe in the same thing, they shouldn't if they can't justify it.

Secondly, if I see the other person's experience matches mine, that's good. I can not give anyone evidence (maybe only if we meet personally) but we can obtain evidence on our own, individually. If we do that, we can gain each other's trust and discuss as equals. We can share our sources and compare our results. The point is, don't take anecdotal evidence if it doesn't match your personal evidence. I know scientific evidence trumps both anytime, but as long as I am at the frontier of human experience (see below) scientific evidence is a luxury, not a standard as you are used to.


(21-05-2012 09:27 AM)Leela Wrote:  Luminon:
Your debate style is faulty, your sources are not trustworthy. You keep ignoring the points made and are too sure of your own judgement.
I will not keep debating anything with you until this changed, because we run in circles.
I see. I think you know now what I'm up to. I know what you're up to. You decided to seek objective scientific standard. Such a science can be learned and proven anywhere in the world. It is a very valuable material, produced at highest costs. Which means very few people actually do it. The fields are well-estabilished and unlikely to include things like the topic of this thread.
You gave up your own exploration in favor of passively receiving science from the people on the top. Which is quite all right, do as you want.

I do something different. I can still learn what scientists discover, just like you. But I live at one of frontiers of human experience and I choose to explore it. I am fully aware that I'm not equipped to produce the level of evidence you want. However there are some methods to compensate for this in a limited way and get limited results. For example, one of these methods means to find other explorers, contact them and compare our notes. Other important instruments include logic, Occam's razor and... subtle perception. I just do what I'm equipped for, nothing more, nothing less.
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