necessity of god
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24-03-2013, 03:22 PM
RE: necessity of god
(24-03-2013 03:20 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(24-03-2013 03:14 PM)Vosur Wrote:  I think you're confusing me with someone else, 'cause I ain't no lifelong atheist. Consider

Sorry, just figured you being all German and whatnot. Tongue ... I'll fix my post.
Man... letting the n00b have an opinion of hisself and shit... Dodgy

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24-03-2013, 04:12 PM
RE: necessity of god
Well, I'm a life long atheist and I've never seen a reason for a god. Everyone else seemed to end up the way I know I'll end up so I figure I'm just cutting out the middle man of the inevitable. Why waste time on the death illusion when the reality will happen soon enough?

If you need someone to lessen the blow of death, you probably aren't very secure about your life. Dodgy

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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24-03-2013, 04:48 PM
RE: necessity of god
I'm not inherently opposed to the idea of god - just be it a proper god, not a parody on humanity. I believe religions should renounce all that separates them and decide through police method on how the suspect probably looks like.

If I have a god, I have something, something I many Christians have, a sense of mystical experience that can be found in all good and proper religions and mystical contributions. I can recognize a good and like-minded person solely by hearing of the same experience. This experience is not limited to Christians, even some scientists or mere unchurched students like me go through it.

It seems to me that the contemporary neurologic research pretty much ignores the phenomenon. I am not surprised, that the verbose Judeo-Christian prayers activate speech centers, or that Buddhistic meditation on compassion activates empathy centers. Duh. What I mean is a life-changing, worlview-transforming experience, that may increase in frequency and duration, so that it becomes almost a permanent part of life. An experience, that does not necessarily involve emotion nor thought, but when needed purifies and potentizes them both. A highly impersonal experience in the middle of a world of personal gods. An experience worth living for. You can hopefully forgive me if I find the Hubble telescope photos beautifully, but comparatively pale compared to a direct input of ecstasy into my nerve system. Guess you have to be extraverted to appreciate the galaxies as they deserve.

This is why I can not settle for anything less than a god that includes all, including humanity. A god both immanent and transcendent. The most personal aspect of that god would be us, people, not the god itself. All the religions should really listen to the advice of Alice Bailey on the unification of god. Atheists perhaps too, an unified god would be much easier to deal with politically.


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24-03-2013, 05:31 PM
RE: necessity of god
(24-03-2013 04:48 PM)Luminon Wrote:  I'm not inherently opposed to the idea of god - just be it a proper god, not a parody on humanity. I believe religions should renounce all that separates them and decide through police method on how the suspect probably looks like.

If I have a god, I have something, something I many Christians have, a sense of mystical experience that can be found in all good and proper religions and mystical contributions. I can recognize a good and like-minded person solely by hearing of the same experience. This experience is not limited to Christians, even some scientists or mere unchurched students like me go through it.

It seems to me that the contemporary neurologic research pretty much ignores the phenomenon. I am not surprised, that the verbose Judeo-Christian prayers activate speech centers, or that Buddhistic meditation on compassion activates empathy centers. Duh. What I mean is a life-changing, worlview-transforming experience, that may increase in frequency and duration, so that it becomes almost a permanent part of life. An experience, that does not necessarily involve emotion nor thought, but when needed purifies and potentizes them both. A highly impersonal experience in the middle of a world of personal gods. An experience worth living for. You can hopefully forgive me if I find the Hubble telescope photos beautifully, but comparatively pale compared to a direct input of ecstasy into my nerve system. Guess you have to be extraverted to appreciate the galaxies as they deserve.

This is why I can not settle for anything less than a god that includes all, including humanity. A god both immanent and transcendent. The most personal aspect of that god would be us, people, not the god itself. All the religions should really listen to the advice of Alice Bailey on the unification of god. Atheists perhaps too, an unified god would be much easier to deal with politically.


Good old Alice, she manages to re invigorate some interesting concepts in that video.
Perhaps the Theosophical Society should have persevered more with her rather than HPB,Leadbeater et al.

I like to keep an open mind when it comes to these issues while avoiding getting sucked in by some of the perpetrators who push far too hard at their dogmas and turn their gurus into instant saviours of sorts.
Your approach comes across as somewhat Buddhist. Be warned, they too can be very locked into their hard line stuff, despite being viewed as atheistic by many.

If there is more to all of this, I see our over all experiential experience and how we behave accordingly as the key to any possible future enlightenment, not the learning by rote or by fear.
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24-03-2013, 06:01 PM
RE: necessity of god
(24-03-2013 04:12 PM)kim Wrote:  If you need someone to lessen the blow of death, you probably aren't very secure about your life. Dodgy


The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.

Mark Twain

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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24-03-2013, 06:02 PM
RE: necessity of god
If the concept of a god had never been concocted, I doubt I would come up with the notion. I would not be a person who would think; I'll bet there is some invisible superbeing who created everything and if I close my eyes and speak softly he will hear me. But I was indoctrinated as a Methodist and so I am familiar with the god concept. If I wanted to start believing again, I would come up with my own god. He would be a Katie-friendly god who would be in favor of good deeds and would not require worship. I don't think I would manufacture a devil. My mythological, invisible stuff would be all good with nothing evil. Why would I make anything evil when the stuff I'm making is just for me? Of course I could not actually "believe" in any of it.
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24-03-2013, 06:24 PM
RE: necessity of god
(24-03-2013 06:01 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(24-03-2013 04:12 PM)kim Wrote:  If you need someone to lessen the blow of death, you probably aren't very secure about your life. Dodgy


The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.

Mark Twain
Only the presumptuous egotistical believers feel that a Angel Heavenly room is on stand by in their name.

For the less presumptuous it's eternal fire,imps, and torture......maybe, if not too bad, a good purging.

The hard line atheist sees extinction as the end call. Yes
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25-03-2013, 06:19 PM
RE: necessity of god
(24-03-2013 05:31 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  Good old Alice, she manages to re invigorate some interesting concepts in that video.
Perhaps the Theosophical Society should have persevered more with her rather than HPB,Leadbeater et al.
Yeah, I have no big problem with HPB, don't know that much about her books either, but if I ever studied comparative religion, she'd be the first one I'd read. As for other Theosophists like Leadbeater, I prefer to be cautious. There are rumors he was a priestly child molester. And together with the other Theosophists they focused more at the teachings and strange phenomena, rather than the actual goal, raising awareness and developing the civilization. Besides Bailey I also trust in Helena Roerich and the still living freelancer Ben Creme. These I think are good people, even if their organizations and followers don't always recognize each other.
Anyway, the AB's books always come with a warning statement not to believe it, not to follow blindly but only take what your best judgement and intuition permit you.

(24-03-2013 05:31 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  I like to keep an open mind when it comes to these issues while avoiding getting sucked in by some of the perpetrators who push far too hard at their dogmas and turn their gurus into instant saviours of sorts.
Your approach comes across as somewhat Buddhist. Be warned, they too can be very locked into their hard line stuff, despite being viewed as atheistic by many.
If there is more to all of this, I see our over all experiential experience and how we behave accordingly as the key to any possible future enlightenment, not the learning by rote or by fear.
Buddhist, in what way? I don't know much about Buddhism, when it comes to technical stuff, Theosophy is closer to Hinduism.

If there's anything I can be dogmatic about, it's the daily experience. This is something I belong to, rather than vice versa. It's hard to believe anything paranormal would be as intense and reliable as this. It's sweet and blissful. I might have actually a book for you, this experience from the point of view of western scholarship and men of our civilization. I just managed to dig it up. Though the neurologic research did not catch up with it yet, it might be interesting to you that it is a real, non-pathologic phenomenon that occurs even in normal people and had so in all history and all cultures. Maybe when I finish the book I'll make a topic about it. Or you could. Because this might be the closest thing to a god and divinity that a modern educated person can objectively talk about. This may be a god good enough even for atheists, maybe better than the Hubble telescope. Wink

"I can only say that for a few minutes my whole being was radiated by a kind of heavenly joy, far more intense than anything I had known before. This state of mind lasted for several months, and, wonderful though it was, it posed an awkward problem in terms of action." from J. M. Cohen 's book
Yep, that totally fits Big Grin
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25-03-2013, 08:27 PM
RE: necessity of god
For mankind as a whole, gods have been and are necessary. The masses need some kind of a god, and those that prey and feed on the masses are more than happy to provide the god...........and saints, and others with long titles. The democrats thought they didn't need one until the convention, then they rethunk the situation, rigged a vote and kidnapped one for the occasion. And Congress needs someone they can trust.
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25-03-2013, 09:13 PM
RE: necessity of god
Fire typically needs fuel, oxygen and heat. Each is a necessity.

Your basic cake needs sugar, butter, eggs, vanilla extract, flour, baking powder & milk.
Each ingredient has a substitute you could use and the cake would turn out fine.

What role does a god play in a natural universe with physical laws ?
God isn't required for fire to be a fire, nor does a cake need a dash of god for it to be a cake.
The universe itself doesn't need a god for it to exist.

My own birth was completely natural, as was all life on earth.

So I don't see the necessity for a god. At times I wish there was one, just so all the trash that we made could be hauled off to the sun or something. A trash man god would be nice.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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