need help with evolution
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06-06-2016, 08:15 PM
need help with evolution
I'm not as Knowledgeable In evolution as I should be. This is a question someone asked me. I've sent a link from talking origins but he seems to think its nonsense. Thanks everyone.

Whats your best evidence for organic or macro evolution and im not talking variation or micro évolution i want something i can believe not by faith? Just one no links im making it ez for u
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06-06-2016, 08:45 PM
RE: need help with evolution
Tell him to go outside and look at all the living things in front of him. What do they have in common and how are they different? Why are they life forms yet different species? Let it soak in that evolution is the backbone of biology. It explains itself through direct observation every time you see a living thing. If he doesn't see that as a fundamental truth he probably doesn't want to or insists on not seeing it. It's so obvious it shouts at you.

It may not be worth talking with this person.

Wiki says horses are a classic example.

You don't need faith because it's you. We're all living proof and so is every other living thing.
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06-06-2016, 08:47 PM
RE: need help with evolution
You should ask them to define what they mean by "macro" evolution since I doubt they even know the difference from micro evolution. Also if they are a creationist aren't they believing that speciation and origins of life occurred because of a magic sky wizard? Where is his proof for that? We have so much proof for evolution it's astounding, yet not one example of a God creating life from dust or from will alone.

They will either accept the info you are giving them via links because it's complex and scientific, requires further study and research or they just want you to say "Yeah I saw a bird turn into a rabbit once, that's my best evidence!" You can't do that but the burden of proof is on them, we have genetics, biology and a crystal clear fossil record proving evolution as a fact now what do they have? A Jewish tribal God's scriptures that were never meant for all of mankind to read about a magic space spirit that one day decided to create organic life? That literally requires nothing but faith to believe in, scientists don't use faith, they require actual evidence.

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06-06-2016, 09:00 PM
RE: need help with evolution
[Image: oAnfA.jpg]

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Flesh and blood of a dead star, slain in the apocalypse of supernova, resurrected by four billion years of continuous autocatalytic reaction and crowned with the emergent property of sentience in the dream that the universe might one day understand itself.
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06-06-2016, 09:10 PM
RE: need help with evolution
The macro/microevolution false dichotomy is a bunch of nonsense cooked up by cretinists when they could no longer deny that evolution happens. They agreed that it happened, but only on tiny scales. "Microevolution." All "macroevolution" is is a whole lot of microevolution that's accumulated. There is no macro or micro. It's all just evolution.

Google scholar will be your friend here, as with most cretinist debates:
https://scholar.google.ca/scholar?hl=en&...oevolution
https://scholar.google.ca/scholar?q=evol...speciation

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06-06-2016, 09:16 PM
RE: need help with evolution
Or just feed him this and watch his head implode: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.10...437.x/full

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06-06-2016, 09:21 PM
RE: need help with evolution
Or this one from Nature: http://faculty.ucr.edu/~gupy/Publication...re2009.pdf

Or you could invite him over and let Zeke devour what passes for his soul.

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06-06-2016, 09:46 PM
RE: need help with evolution
As always, I recommend looking at genetics, not morphology, for the most solid (as in "visible to the person who is trying hard not to see it") evidence for common descent.

Buy a copy of The Language of God by Francis S. Collins, former head of the Human Genome Project and current head of the National Institutes of Health (which publishes huge volumes of data on evolution's cutting-edge research online). Dr. Collins is an evangelical Christian and very carefully explains how DNA proves we share common ancestry with the other animals on the planet, including chimpanzees. Coming from a fellow evangelical (the only people who seem to have a real issue with common descent) will make it easier to take than an atheist, whom they would see as trying to "convert them to atheistic science".

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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06-06-2016, 09:52 PM
RE: need help with evolution
(06-06-2016 08:15 PM)purpledaisies Wrote:  I'm not as Knowledgeable In evolution as I should be. This is a question someone asked me. I've sent a link from talking origins but he seems to think its nonsense. Thanks everyone.

Whats your best evidence for organic or macro evolution and im not talking variation or micro évolution i want something i can believe not by faith? Just one no links im making it ez for u

Hmm... I suppose I could try to explain. I'm an engineer, not a biologist, so I'm not the best one to explain. But I can try in a way that makes sense to me.

First two words that I think are important: genotype and phenotype. A genotype is the organisms DNA, the alleles and the amino acids. The phenotype is the DNA fleshed out into visible form, such as fur color, leg length, behaviours, etc. Not all changes in the genotype is evident in the phenotype. This is important to remember. As such not all changes to the genotype are subject to selection.

Now when a cell divides for sexual reproduction there are several copying errors. These changes are random and are passed down to the offspring, causing changes in the offspring organisms genotype. Not all of these flesh out or are evident in the organism. However they do pass down from one generation to the next. Now none of this is disputed by creationists so far, and should be simple enough to follow.

From time to time a random mutation in the genome will manifest in the phenotype. Some are neutral, some are positive, and some are negative. Neutral mutations of this type include changes in how proteins code color in hair or skin. This cannot be selected for or against. There are, however, examples of one being replaced by the other by simple random drift. Neither gene is selected for or against, but just by sheer luck one replaces the other. It happens.

There are positive mutations, such as the ability in humans to digest milk into adulthood. These mutations allow for the holders to have a better chance at survival, and thus can have a greater chance at spreading in the population. This type of selection is called natural selection. When a bacteria develops a resistance to bacteria, this is also an example of natural selection. There are also traits such as tallness in men or the ornate plumage on a peacock that is subject to sexual selection. Females tend to prefer certain features, and the genes for those features tend to spread throughout a population.

There are also examples of negative changes. These are obvious and are quickly weaned out.

This is all micro evolution, you might say. How does it add up to macro evolution?

Let's assume that everything up to this point is true. That there are subtle changes to a organism that are passed down and compile through each generation. The question now becomes when do you draw the line at macro evolution? Most would say that major morphological changes are what is necessary. So what prevents those small changes from compiling? This is of course only theory but it makes sense. It is plausible, and that is what is necessary for initial consideration.

What is needed is ways to confirm the idea that these changes compile to create the large scale change that we see. There are two ways to do this. The more imperfect way, but the way that is easiest to see and visualize is through fossils. There are many lineages that are nearly intact. It is fascinating to see these fossils lined up, showing small changes that slowly compile into large scale morphological changes. It is amazing to see the procession, for example, of whales from land dwelling mammals. I am amazed to see the procession from ancient dinosaurs to modern birds in fossils. Each form is clear and complete in its own way. But the procession from something so alien to something so familiar is amazing. By looking at these fossils it is clear that evolution isn't peace-meal the way some creationists claim, but instead a slow progression.

The better option for confirmation, but one that requires more research, is that of examining the genotype of organisms. Now since organisms pass on small changes in their genotype organisms that are closely related should have fewer differences. Organisms that are more distantly related should have more differences. There should also be a certain amount of code that is shared among most organisms. And this is exactly what we do find. Our genotype is most similar to those of other great apes, while it also shares a certain amount of similarity with the genotype of trees. Now if all members of one group have a feature in their genotype that is not shared in another group then it can be safely assumed that these two groups are separated in some way. Through this we can find when groups split from each other.
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06-06-2016, 10:23 PM
RE: need help with evolution
The best evidence is all life on earth.

It's like asking for the best evidence of an airplane flying .
"Don't point to all of them. Just show me one airplane that flies. Your best example."

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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