need help with evolution
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
07-06-2016, 01:31 AM
RE: need help with evolution
(07-06-2016 12:48 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(06-06-2016 11:57 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  ... and the real question becomes, what mechanism is in place that prevents "microevolution" (which even many fundies accept) from becoming "macroevolution"?

How does a species stop those changes from accumulating past the point of no return?

The amusing point is that most of them are not even internally consistent, with regard to this question. On the one hand, they say the lack of time (in a 6,000 - 10,000 year old earth) stands as a barrier to the type of accumulated changes that would turn "micro" into "macro" ... but on the other hand, when you get them talking about the physical impossibility of fitting two of each of the species currently alive on the planet into a 150m long by 25m wide by 15m high ship (the Ark), they digress into talking about "Created Kinds", and how one basic type of feline would evolve in only 6,000 years to make everything from cats to tigers, a rate of evolution far beyond what science claims.

Yep. The slipshod, if not dishonest, definition of "kind" is to blame.

I've been discussing these sorts of questions online since 1999, and I've never once seen a definition of "kind" that matches another. They all seem to slip-slide away depending upon the needs of the specific conversation ... species, genera, kingdom, whatever works to "win" the "point".

But it isn't, and cannot be, internally coherent, because it's imposing a priori conceptions upon reality, all the while ignoring the fact that reality really doesn't care what you believe.

It's not just a double-standard that creationists impose upon anyone who disagrees. It's a multiple-standard depending on the needs of the moment which the believer feels he must deploy in order to defend his own beliefs.

Reality can wait.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like Thumpalumpacus's post
07-06-2016, 01:59 AM
RE: need help with evolution
(07-06-2016 01:26 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  
(06-06-2016 08:15 PM)purpledaisies Wrote:  I'm not as Knowledgeable In evolution as I should be. This is a question someone asked me. I've sent a link from talking origins but he seems to think its nonsense. Thanks everyone.

Whats your best evidence for organic or macro evolution and im not talking variation or micro évolution i want something i can believe not by faith? Just one no links im making it ez for u

The year is 1971. Researches have decided to take a small population of a lizard species and introduce it to a novel environment that is isolated from the original, to see how the change affects the lizards across generations. Fast forward 20 years; the researchers are forced to give up on their work, as the Croatian War for Independence, they are told, has made it too dangerous to travel to the test island. Fast forward again to 2004. The area has cooled and research begins anew with new researchers to assess the status of the population; not even sure if it exists still.

The researchers survey the island and find one interesting new population of lizards; the original species home to it are gone, and the test population is not apparently present either.

This newly found species is tested and found to be descended from the transplants; they had evolved entirely new gut structures that segmented their intestines and extended digestion which allowed them to eat the leaves on the island which the species previously had no capacity for doing. The lizards heads also changed to accommodate, growing wider and flatter with far increased bite force, better suiting to a herbivorous population.
The lizards also changed behaviours; their adaptations allowed them to mate more frequently as more resources were available to them, their aggressive and territorial behaviours declined from the those of original species as well.

The test population in all but name evolved on a macro-scale.

(To know a better version; http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/...ution.html . I can also send you a paper on the lizards should you wish)

That is awesome. Thanks
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
07-06-2016, 06:13 AM
RE: need help with evolution
(06-06-2016 08:15 PM)purpledaisies Wrote:  I'm not as Knowledgeable In evolution as I should be. This is a question someone asked me. I've sent a link from talking origins but he seems to think its nonsense. Thanks everyone.

Whats your best evidence for organic or macro evolution and im not talking variation or micro évolution i want something i can believe not by faith? Just one no links im making it ez for u

These questions hurt my brain because of the presumption the person is already making that they know what evolution is. These are questions with fake interest.


But I stick with fossils if pressed to answer it:
Tiktaalik (transitional species in the fish to amphibian lineage)
Ambulocetus (terrestrial ancestor to the whales)
Paleohiopus (one of the ancestral horses as they evolved from small three-toed forest-dweller to large single-toed organisms living on the plains)
Mesohippus (another of the horse ancestors)
Australopithecus (human ancestor)
Ardipithecus (another human ancestor)

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes TheBeardedDude's post
07-06-2016, 11:21 AM
RE: need help with evolution
(07-06-2016 06:13 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(06-06-2016 08:15 PM)purpledaisies Wrote:  I'm not as Knowledgeable In evolution as I should be. This is a question someone asked me. I've sent a link from talking origins but he seems to think its nonsense. Thanks everyone.

Whats your best evidence for organic or macro evolution and im not talking variation or micro évolution i want something i can believe not by faith? Just one no links im making it ez for u

These questions hurt my brain because of the presumption the person is already making that they know what evolution is. These are questions with fake interest.


But I stick with fossils if pressed to answer it:
Tiktaalik (transitional species in the fish to amphibian lineage)
Ambulocetus (terrestrial ancestor to the whales)
Paleohiopus (one of the ancestral horses as they evolved from small three-toed forest-dweller to large single-toed organisms living on the plains)
Mesohippus (another of the horse ancestors)
Australopithecus (human ancestor)
Ardipithecus (another human ancestor)
I figured thats what it was, I wanted to make sure I knew what I was talking about before I said anything. I sent him some links thanks to the wonderful people here. I'm reading them myself too.
However his claim was that god gave us morals. I told him to prove his god and that he gave us morals. He kept trying to bring in evolution with a bunch of word salad. I finally told him that he was dodging and he needed to prove his claim until then I was done. I had provided him with lots of information but nothing from him and it is His turn. Someone else finally told him he a lair and to prove his claim or shut up.

I appreciate all of you helping me. I will be doing some reading soon, I have my camper we are fixing up so not much time til its done.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like purpledaisies's post
07-06-2016, 12:28 PM
RE: need help with evolution
(06-06-2016 08:15 PM)purpledaisies Wrote:  I'm not as Knowledgeable In evolution as I should be. This is a question someone asked me. I've sent a link from talking origins but he seems to think its nonsense. Thanks everyone.

Whats your best evidence for organic or macro evolution and im not talking variation or micro évolution i want something i can believe not by faith? Just one no links im making it ez for u

Chihuahuas and Great Pyrenees dogs can't reproduce together any more. They can do the nasty but they won't produce viable puppies. It's like trying to mate a Smart Car with a Kenworth semi-tractor. Won't work. And this was human directed evolution, no god needed.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
07-06-2016, 12:58 PM
RE: need help with evolution
It's very simple.

First you start with a jar of peanut butter.

Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Commonsensei's post
07-06-2016, 01:02 PM
RE: need help with evolution
(07-06-2016 11:21 AM)purpledaisies Wrote:  
(07-06-2016 06:13 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  These questions hurt my brain because of the presumption the person is already making that they know what evolution is. These are questions with fake interest.


But I stick with fossils if pressed to answer it:
Tiktaalik (transitional species in the fish to amphibian lineage)
Ambulocetus (terrestrial ancestor to the whales)
Paleohiopus (one of the ancestral horses as they evolved from small three-toed forest-dweller to large single-toed organisms living on the plains)
Mesohippus (another of the horse ancestors)
Australopithecus (human ancestor)
Ardipithecus (another human ancestor)
I figured thats what it was, I wanted to make sure I knew what I was talking about before I said anything. I sent him some links thanks to the wonderful people here. I'm reading them myself too.
However his claim was that god gave us morals. I told him to prove his god and that he gave us morals. He kept trying to bring in evolution with a bunch of word salad. I finally told him that he was dodging and he needed to prove his claim until then I was done. I had provided him with lots of information but nothing from him and it is His turn. Someone else finally told him he a lair and to prove his claim or shut up.

I appreciate all of you helping me. I will be doing some reading soon, I have my camper we are fixing up so not much time til its done.

Shifting the burden of proof by bringing up evolution (which they clearly knew nothing about) was a really stupid strategy on their part.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes TheBeardedDude's post
07-06-2016, 01:13 PM
RE: need help with evolution
(06-06-2016 11:05 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  Time to get down to brass tacks. Let's talk Endogenous Retroviri (ERV for short). Retroviri have this nasty habit of jumoing in and out of a host's genome to avoid being devoured by the immune system. Every now and then one gets stuck and becomes an endogeous retovirus. These ERV make up several percent of your DNA [11]. A few of those get stuck in the germ line and get passed on. A few end up causing disease while a few more have been co-opted into serving our needs but most are just silent, non-coding junk.

Not only do humans and chimps share the overwhelming majority of their ERV, those ERV are imbedded in the same locations in human and chimp genomes and lastly, the ERV have the same mutations in both humans and chimps[12]. The ERV evidence is so persuasive that you can build phylogenetic trees of all the apes using nothing more than these accidental viral fossils [13]. So now god gave us and all the apes identical retroviral infections, embedded them in our genes in exactly the same spot and gave those ERV the same mutations.

This. The distribution of ERV's in the genomes of Earth's species is pretty much the smoking gun as far as evidence for common descent goes.

Save a life. Adopt a greyhound.

[Image: anigrey.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
07-06-2016, 01:36 PM
RE: need help with evolution
(07-06-2016 01:02 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(07-06-2016 11:21 AM)purpledaisies Wrote:  I figured thats what it was, I wanted to make sure I knew what I was talking about before I said anything. I sent him some links thanks to the wonderful people here. I'm reading them myself too.
However his claim was that god gave us morals. I told him to prove his god and that he gave us morals. He kept trying to bring in evolution with a bunch of word salad. I finally told him that he was dodging and he needed to prove his claim until then I was done. I had provided him with lots of information but nothing from him and it is His turn. Someone else finally told him he a lair and to prove his claim or shut up.

I appreciate all of you helping me. I will be doing some reading soon, I have my camper we are fixing up so not much time til its done.

Shifting the burden of proof by bringing up evolution (which they clearly knew nothing about) was a really stupid strategy on their part.

Now he says I believe I came from a rock. Lmao is all I can do. I told him he has no clue what he's talking about and he needs to go back to Jr high biology. I told him I provided plenty of soild information that needs to read and study before we can debate it. And again that he is dodging and I'm still waiting on proof that his god exist and that he gave us morals.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
07-06-2016, 01:41 PM
RE: need help with evolution
(07-06-2016 01:36 PM)purpledaisies Wrote:  
(07-06-2016 01:02 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Shifting the burden of proof by bringing up evolution (which they clearly knew nothing about) was a really stupid strategy on their part.

Now he says I believe I came from a rock. Lmao is all I can do. I told him he has no clue what he's talking about and he needs to go back to Jr high biology. I told him I provided plenty of soild information that needs to read and study before we can debate it. And again that he is dodging and I'm still waiting on proof that his god exist and that he gave us morals.

Now he is conflating hypotheses on abiogenesis with evolution (no abiogenesis hypotheses postulate that we come from rocks though, so that is a straw man within a red herring as part of an attempt to shift the burden of proof. 10/10 for being logically unsound)

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes TheBeardedDude's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: