need help with evolution
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07-06-2016, 03:03 PM
RE: need help with evolution
(07-06-2016 01:13 PM)Popeyes Pappy Wrote:  
(06-06-2016 11:05 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  Time to get down to brass tacks. Let's talk Endogenous Retroviri (ERV for short). Retroviri have this nasty habit of jumoing in and out of a host's genome to avoid being devoured by the immune system. Every now and then one gets stuck and becomes an endogeous retovirus. These ERV make up several percent of your DNA [11]. A few of those get stuck in the germ line and get passed on. A few end up causing disease while a few more have been co-opted into serving our needs but most are just silent, non-coding junk.

Not only do humans and chimps share the overwhelming majority of their ERV, those ERV are imbedded in the same locations in human and chimp genomes and lastly, the ERV have the same mutations in both humans and chimps[12]. The ERV evidence is so persuasive that you can build phylogenetic trees of all the apes using nothing more than these accidental viral fossils [13]. So now god gave us and all the apes identical retroviral infections, embedded them in our genes in exactly the same spot and gave those ERV the same mutations.

This. The distribution of ERV's in the genomes of Earth's species is pretty much the smoking gun as far as evidence for common descent goes.

One of many smoking guns as I see it but certainly a silver bullet when it comes to cretinists. The human-chimp divide is the one point that you can pin them down on. No weasely attempts to lump us together as the same "kind" as the apes. So then they're left trying to explain away the shockingly similar ERV that we share with the chimps. AiG has made some half-hearted attempts at it but nothing that even scuffs the paint job on the ERV argument.

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07-06-2016, 06:55 PM
RE: need help with evolution
(07-06-2016 03:03 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  
(07-06-2016 01:13 PM)Popeyes Pappy Wrote:  This. The distribution of ERV's in the genomes of Earth's species is pretty much the smoking gun as far as evidence for common descent goes.

One of many smoking guns as I see it but certainly a silver bullet when it comes to cretinists. The human-chimp divide is the one point that you can pin them down on. No weasely attempts to lump us together as the same "kind" as the apes. So then they're left trying to explain away the shockingly similar ERV that we share with the chimps. AiG has made some half-hearted attempts at it but nothing that even scuffs the paint job on the ERV argument.

It's one of the reasons I like to talk about human evolution, both morphological and genetic. It skips right to the heart of the argument (the real reason they object, I mean), and forces them to consider their own connection to the rest of the universe.

And it doesn't have to be complex science, either. Simply point out that we are mammals, complete with placental development and live birth, nipples, etc. One of my favorite little details is the fact that humans and chimpanzees share the same exact number of body hairs, in the exact same places; ours have simply shrunk down to near-invisible fineness over most of our skin-surface.

You can also talk about the phenomenon of neoteny, which is the developmental condition of retaining youthful features into adulthood. Since bipedalism developed before our brains began to increase in volume, it produced an increasing problem with childbirth because the pelvic bones had to rotate inward for the feet to both point forward for walking (whereas in chimps, the feet and pelvic girdle splay outward, which is why chimps walk with that rolling gait and can't stay upright for long-- it's not energy-efficient), narrowing the birth canal. When the freed hands allowed for toolmaking and thus encouraged brain development under selection pressure, it was trying to force a larger object through a smaller passage. Rather than go extinct from maternal and infant mortality, we began to be born a bit premature... that's why infants are born without all their "wiring" complete. A newborn Homo sapiens kicks and squirms like it does because their brain literally hasn't finished wiring itself to fully control the limbs; likewise, the baby's eyes don't initially work well.

It's not related to survival in childbirth, but baby chimps are also born with the flat faces that humans maintain all their lives, while in the case of chimps (and Neandertals, etc), the forehead slopes backward as the jawline and orbital arches protrude. We simply developed a gene-set that kept us from taking that extra step toward "adulthood", throughout our lives.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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08-06-2016, 11:43 AM
RE: need help with evolution
Ask him what % chimp he is. Answer: 98.8%
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08-06-2016, 11:47 AM
RE: need help with evolution
(08-06-2016 11:43 AM)Iñigo Wrote:  Ask him what % chimp he is. Answer: 98.8%

Our how human a chimp is. Answer = 98.8%

It explains so much by recognizing how much chimp we are and how similar they are to us. But I bet even Chimps would think twice before supporting Trump Dodgy

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08-06-2016, 06:57 PM
RE: need help with evolution
(08-06-2016 11:47 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  
(08-06-2016 11:43 AM)Iñigo Wrote:  Ask him what % chimp he is. Answer: 98.8%

Our how human a chimp is. Answer = 98.8%

It explains so much by recognizing how much chimp we are and how similar they are to us. But I bet even Chimps would think twice before supporting Trump Dodgy

I am not sure about chimps not supporting him. He strikes me as the alpha-chimp due to the responses to his bluster and bravado from his followers. You don't believe in evolution? Just look at Donald Trump and his supporters.
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09-06-2016, 02:31 PM
RE: need help with evolution
(07-06-2016 06:55 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(07-06-2016 03:03 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  One of many smoking guns as I see it but certainly a silver bullet when it comes to cretinists. The human-chimp divide is the one point that you can pin them down on. No weasely attempts to lump us together as the same "kind" as the apes. So then they're left trying to explain away the shockingly similar ERV that we share with the chimps. AiG has made some half-hearted attempts at it but nothing that even scuffs the paint job on the ERV argument.

It's one of the reasons I like to talk about human evolution, both morphological and genetic. It skips right to the heart of the argument (the real reason they object, I mean), and forces them to consider their own connection to the rest of the universe.

And it doesn't have to be complex science, either. Simply point out that we are mammals, complete with placental development and live birth, nipples, etc. One of my favorite little details is the fact that humans and chimpanzees share the same exact number of body hairs, in the exact same places; ours have simply shrunk down to near-invisible fineness over most of our skin-surface.

You can also talk about the phenomenon of neoteny, which is the developmental condition of retaining youthful features into adulthood. Since bipedalism developed before our brains began to increase in volume, it produced an increasing problem with childbirth because the pelvic bones had to rotate inward for the feet to both point forward for walking (whereas in chimps, the feet and pelvic girdle splay outward, which is why chimps walk with that rolling gait and can't stay upright for long-- it's not energy-efficient), narrowing the birth canal. When the freed hands allowed for toolmaking and thus encouraged brain development under selection pressure, it was trying to force a larger object through a smaller passage. Rather than go extinct from maternal and infant mortality, we began to be born a bit premature... that's why infants are born without all their "wiring" complete. A newborn Homo sapiens kicks and squirms like it does because their brain literally hasn't finished wiring itself to fully control the limbs; likewise, the baby's eyes don't initially work well.

It's not related to survival in childbirth, but baby chimps are also born with the flat faces that humans maintain all their lives, while in the case of chimps (and Neandertals, etc), the forehead slopes backward as the jawline and orbital arches protrude. We simply developed a gene-set that kept us from taking that extra step toward "adulthood", throughout our lives.

Good points. I've spoken about the differences between us and them being one of degree and not kind. Also, here is a past thread on neotony.

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/Thread-Neoteny
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09-06-2016, 04:50 PM
RE: need help with evolution
1. Every person on the planet is related to each other.
You can pick anyone and if you could go back far enough, you'll find that you both have the same great great great great etc grand parent.

2. The same can be said for every species.
A common ancestor.

If you can understand the first part, then with some education, you can understand the second part.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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09-06-2016, 05:41 PM
RE: need help with evolution
(09-06-2016 04:50 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  1. Every person on the planet is related to each other.
You can pick anyone and if you could go back far enough, you'll find that you both have the same great great great great etc grand parent.

2. The same can be said for every species.
A common ancestor.

If you can understand the first part, then with some education, you can understand the second part.
Yes, next time you see a mushroom (or a strawberry, or a snapper, or an apple), realise that you have the same great great great great etc grand parent. if you go back far enough.
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09-06-2016, 08:02 PM
RE: need help with evolution
(09-06-2016 05:41 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(09-06-2016 04:50 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  1. Every person on the planet is related to each other.
You can pick anyone and if you could go back far enough, you'll find that you both have the same great great great great etc grand parent.

2. The same can be said for every species.
A common ancestor.

If you can understand the first part, then with some education, you can understand the second part.
Yes, next time you see a mushroom (or a strawberry, or a snapper, or an apple), realise that you have the same great great great great etc grand parent. if you go back far enough.

Mushrooms are closer to humans on the evolutionary path than strawberries.
Both are very tasty Smile

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09-06-2016, 11:12 PM
RE: need help with evolution
(06-06-2016 08:15 PM)purpledaisies Wrote:  I'm not as Knowledgeable In evolution as I should be. This is a question someone asked me. I've sent a link from talking origins but he seems to think its nonsense. Thanks everyone.

Whats your best evidence for organic or macro evolution and im not talking variation or micro évolution i want something i can believe not by faith? Just one no links im making it ez for u

This example is an indisputable result of evolution.....


[Image: evolution-FI-759x419.jpg]

It turns out that if you have a tendon protruding from the underside of your wrist, you actually have physical signs of evolution attached to your body. it’s known as a vestigial structure. Vestigial structures are body traits left over from evolution that have no discernible use for us modern humans. That includes things like tailbones, goosebumps and the appendix. These are different from other traits humans have evolved to no longer require because instead of phasing out entirely—like the tail—they remain present in the body.

It’s known as the palmaris longus and it turns out most people have it—in fact, those who don’t are actually reasonably rare at 14% of the general population. It is believed that the palmaris longus was used by humans years ago to activate the wrist’s flexibility. However, it has no effect on the modern human’s body. In fact, the tendon’s presence is so benign that it’s very common for it to be removed and used in tendon grafts or cosmetic surgery.

The tendon is also present in animals like lemurs and monkeys, but it’s useful to them because it helps with navigating through trees. In animals like chimps and humans, however, the tendon is much shorter (or non-existent).

—This should give your friend something to think about or try to deny.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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