need some advice on how to answer a christian argument
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02-07-2013, 07:38 AM
RE: need some advice on how to answer a christian argument
Fast ending to most Christian arguments: Judge not, that you be not judged. - Matthew 7:1, 2

"If we knew what it was we were doing, it would not be called research, would it?" - Albert Einstein
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02-07-2013, 08:49 AM (This post was last modified: 02-07-2013 08:54 AM by TwoCultSurvivor.)
RE: need some advice on how to answer a christian argument
Seriously, the answer I come up with is this:

What atrocity does God have to commit in order for you to conclude that He has done something that is not good? Because no matter how high a threshold you set, the flood of Noah crosses that threshold rather handily.

If everything God does is good by definition, then there is no objective standard for goodness. It is subject to His whim and capriciousness. If He IS that objective authority, then humanity has no basis to argue for equal rights of women or an abolition of slavery. A virgin who's raped must marry her rapist, in such a case. That's good. We know it's good because the Bible says so, and therefore God says so, and His ways are higher than our ways.

Forgive me if I think THAT God is a major, MAJOR asshole. (Can I say asshole on this board?)
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02-07-2013, 08:56 AM
RE: need some advice on how to answer a christian argument
[Image: tumblr_m6l84lYTR11qdqya3o1_500.jpg]

This is their god. The one who they believe can do whatever it wants.

Ask them each question

Would you be in a relationship with someone who said
"You are nothing without me"
"If you even think about leaving me, I'll make your life a living hell"
"You're disgusting. You don't even deserve me"
"You'll never find anyone as good as me"
"You brought this on yourself"
"I know best"
"You're a terrible person and you need me to be better"
"You're not worthy of my love"
"I'm only doing this because I love you"
"Don't listen to anyone who doesn't understand what we have"

Then ask "What would you call someone who was in this kind of abusive relationship ?"

Lastly ask the following

"Do you feel like You are nothing without god ?"
"What does god say he will do to your soul if you leave him ?"
"Do you feel like a filthy sinner and you don't deserve god's love ?"
"Do you think anyone can be as good as god ?"
"When you feel that god is punishing you, do you often think that you brought it on yourself."
"Does god know best ?"
"Do you consider yourself born into sin and you need god to be better ?"
"Do you think you are worthy of god's love ?"
"Does god put obstacles in your life, often causing you hardship & pain because he loves you ?"
"Is your relationship with god something that outsiders just can't understand ?"

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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02-07-2013, 08:58 AM
RE: need some advice on how to answer a christian argument
(02-07-2013 03:25 AM)Blythe Wrote:  Hi
I enjoy debating christians, and mostly manage ok..but there is one argument I just dont know how to answer. it goes something like this:
God can do what ever he likes (in relation to the geneocide in the OT mainly) because we are his creation. He made us, its up to him if we live or die, So what if god decides to send someone to kill you, its up to him.

I never know quite how to answer this. Any one ever come across this and how do you usually respond?


Thanks, Blythe

Gods, if they are infinite, (eternal), cannot "decide" to do something. An action "in time" refutes their timeless nature, and becomes a point against which "eternal" (timelessness) can be measured. It is devoid of any meaningful linguistic content.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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02-07-2013, 09:24 AM
RE: need some advice on how to answer a christian argument
(02-07-2013 08:49 AM)TwoCultSurvivor Wrote:  Seriously, the answer I come up with is this:

What atrocity does God have to commit in order for you to conclude that He has done something that is not good? Because no matter how high a threshold you set, the flood of Noah crosses that threshold rather handily.

If everything God does is good by definition, then there is no objective standard for goodness. It is subject to His whim and capriciousness. If He IS that objective authority, then humanity has no basis to argue for equal rights of women or an abolition of slavery. A virgin who's raped must marry her rapist, in such a case. That's good. We know it's good because the Bible says so, and therefore God says so, and His ways are higher than our ways.

Forgive me if I think THAT God is a major, MAJOR asshole. (Can I say asshole on this board?)

I think "giant, bleeding, scum-sucking, fucking asshole" is more appropriate.Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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02-07-2013, 10:31 AM
RE: need some advice on how to answer a christian argument
Quote:Hi
I enjoy debating christians, and mostly manage ok..but there is one argument I just dont know how to answer. it goes something like this:
God can do what ever he likes (in relation to the geneocide in the OT mainly) because we are his creation. He made us, its up to him if we live or die, So what if god decides to send someone to kill you, its up to him.

I never know quite how to answer this. Any one ever come across this and how do you usually respond?

When I'm presented with this:

1. It's not a genocide. The peoples of Canaan had weapons, chariots, fortified cities, even giants. This was a war.

2. The people confronted by Israel further were familir with the Egyptian plagues and miracles and the military successes of the Jews in the desert. They had opportunities (numerous ones over decades) to worship Jehovah and assimilate peaceably into Israel.

3. God is really big and powerful. You have free will. You need not "follow the whims of God". Heaven is a choice and so is Hell. Choose.
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02-07-2013, 10:42 AM
RE: need some advice on how to answer a christian argument
(02-07-2013 10:31 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:Hi
I enjoy debating christians, and mostly manage ok..but there is one argument I just dont know how to answer. it goes something like this:
God can do what ever he likes (in relation to the geneocide in the OT mainly) because we are his creation. He made us, its up to him if we live or die, So what if god decides to send someone to kill you, its up to him.

I never know quite how to answer this. Any one ever come across this and how do you usually respond?

When I'm presented with this:

1. It's not a genocide. The peoples of Canaan had weapons, chariots, fortified cities, even giants. This was a war.

2. The people confronted by Israel further were familir with the Egyptian plagues and miracles and the military successes of the Jews in the desert. They had opportunities (numerous ones over decades) to worship Jehovah and assimilate peaceably into Israel.

3. God is really big and powerful. You have free will. You need not "follow the whims of God". Heaven is a choice and so is Hell. Choose.

Here is a perfect example of someone ignoring the evil in the bible and turning it around on you. Now of course most people when confronted with the filth in the OT, are naturally repulsed and try to make excuses for why the God they are told about in church is not the one talked about in the bible.

Yahweh is not timeless or eternal he is a bronze age war god and like all gods of that era he is childish, capricious, jealous, and prone to bouts of over reaction. Today his actions are interpreted to mean the exact opposite of what they actually say "It wasn't a Genocide it was a war" when in the texts God through Moses orders the Israelites to kill everyone except virgin girls who were to become slaves, that is the definition of genocide. As such Yahweh does not fit the modern world where rape and total destruction (ie genocide) are considered evil so either you look at the texts and realise that it is all myth no different than any other peoples mythical stories, or you have to spin an intricate web of lies and half truths to deceive yourself into buying that this character who if he was human would be considered worse than Hitler is actually not only Good but the only source for being Good.

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02-07-2013, 10:53 AM
RE: need some advice on how to answer a christian argument
Chas, I stand corrected.

PleaseJesus: The people could not have been familiar with the Egyptian plagues and miracles and military successes of the Jews in the desert because... wait for it... those things never happened. As much history as the War of the Ring and the re-establishment of the monarchy under Aragorn.
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02-07-2013, 12:22 PM
RE: need some advice on how to answer a christian argument
(02-07-2013 05:38 AM)Starcrash Wrote:  
(02-07-2013 03:25 AM)Blythe Wrote:  Hi
I enjoy debating christians, and mostly manage ok..but there is one argument I just dont know how to answer. it goes something like this:
God can do what ever he likes (in relation to the geneocide in the OT mainly) because we are his creation. He made us, its up to him if we live or die, So what if god decides to send someone to kill you, its up to him.

I never know quite how to answer this. Any one ever come across this and how do you usually respond?


Thanks, Blythe

For one thing, a person cannot do whatever he or she tells others not to do, because that would make the person a hypocrite. And we know how Jesus feels about hypocrites.

Second, it's helpful to put your opponent in your shoes. Was it alright for the 9/11 terrorists to kill whomever they liked because Allah gave the victims their lives in the first place? Of course it assumes that Allah did in fact give people life, but that's the point -- if your Christian opponent makes that same point, they're rationalizing in exactly the same way that the terrorists did. That kind of thinking is evil for the same reason it's evil for other religions to think it, whether or not their god actually gave anyone life.

Finally, it's a standard that none of us agree with in any other context. I personally have a daughter that I helped to create, but I don't have the freedom to kill her -- not even if her mother is okay with it. It's still wrong to hurt someone, even if you gave her the opportunity to get hurt by giving her life. The only reason anyone would ever argue otherwise is to self-justify their impulse (or in this case, someone else's impulse) to do something evil.

Yes, good points, esp the standard one.

I want for myself what I want for every women, absolute equality. Agnes Macphail
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02-07-2013, 12:26 PM
RE: need some advice on how to answer a christian argument
(02-07-2013 05:50 AM)Free Thought Wrote:  
(02-07-2013 04:59 AM)Blythe Wrote:  Yes, thats the answer i have been given. If god does it, it is therefore good.

Alright let's get this party started.


(02-07-2013 03:59 AM)Blythe Wrote:  Usual answer to your first point is that we dont understand good ... but your point about making a living breathing feeling creature is good, I can use that..

The sheer fact is, the "We (You) cannot understand the ways of god" argument/proclamation is nothing more than an simple, bold faced, unabashed, almost self-acknowledged copout. If humans are unable to understand the ways of god, or will always misconstrued them for something they are not (good acts seen as evil, for instance), surely god must know this. So why'd god bother to dictate his books, knowing that we would not understand his written of ways?

It is often said that god is the source of morality, yet it is also said that we cannot judge god with human morality, as we lack the ability to understand his higher ways, as previously mentioned. Yet did not god imbue upon us It's understanding of morality and concepts similar if it is indeed the source? Thus I argue that we are indeed morally and otherwise able to understand and judge the evil and good that god as wrought on it's own scale.
Either that, or god deliberately made a defective product and commanded it to be perfect, knowing that it is by It's hand that it is impossible. "Created sick, commanded to be sound" This makes god an evil being indeed, there is no possible way one could excuse such behaviour, calling it righteous and not be intellectually dishonest, depraved, or have a bad taste in their mouth afterwards.

Is it not amazing that we can not understand or comprehend the mysterious ways of god, yet person X will who claims we cannot understand will say they themselves have exactly the correct understanding of their god's book and the meaning behind the letters? I sir, smell bullshit.

(02-07-2013 03:59 AM)Blythe Wrote:  The second point, well that doesnt work, as the parents had nothing to do with the creation of the child , it was god... yea I know ... Weeping

This makes the example all the more telling. Mostly because the insistence that god be pushed into the scenario of evil for comparison where it would not have been included previously.

God appears even worse than before. Either god is a weak, ineffectual bystander, or a malevolent watcher, allowing and willing that the scenario should play out and doing nothing to prevent it. Instead of merely being compared against the evil acof the parents and being concluded as evil by the comparison, god was just made directly by the scenario which previously had no Deity in the equation.

Great comebacks, thanks heaps

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