not believing in god and believing in no god
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08-02-2013, 09:14 PM
RE: not believing in god and believing in no god
Incidentally, I just happened to bump into a friend of mine yesterday who is studying the Gnostics at the graduate level. Yeah, she kind of thinks the whole gnostic/agnostic dichotomy is BS. Just sayin. (And for the haters out there in hater land suckin back their cool refreshing Haterade, she's studying religion, she's not a Theist)

Hey, Druid.

I too often find the distinction hazy. I know a lot of people who are very comfortable with it, but the question has yet to be answered satisfactorily for me. That is to say, in a way that makes me comfortable with it.

Hey, Asp.

Actually Atheism, according to many, makes no claim whatsoever. So an Atheist lacks a belief. WHY an Atheist lacks a belief is irrelevant. When you get into the why of it, you get into positive claim territory and many Atheists don't want to go there.

Quote:I find it funny how some people can say they are absolutely certain
there is no god, it's much like claiming with absolute certainty that
you know there is one.

I concur.

Hey, Chas.

Quote:An agnostic atheist doesn't make the claim that there is no god, only that he/she doesn't believe there is.

Could you just clarify something for me, brother?

If I asked said Atheist if there was a God, would their answer be, "I do not believe that there is a God?"

Hey, poolboy.

Quote:Agnostics... how I loathe you.

Would it make you feel better if you sucked my dick?

Maybe instead of mocking us with some pretty unsophisticated humour and stewing in the smeg of your bubbling hatred, you could, oh, I don't know, actually take the time to understand us.

I'm right here if you ever have questions. I mean that sincerely.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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08-02-2013, 09:20 PM
RE: not believing in god and believing in no god
(08-02-2013 09:14 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Chas.

Quote:An agnostic atheist doesn't make the claim that there is no god, only that he/she doesn't believe there is.

Could you just clarify something for me, brother?

If I asked said Atheist if there was a God, would their answer be, "I do not believe that there is a God?"

I'd say that depends on the atheist.

If you ask me if there are are any gods, I would answer that I don't believe there are as there is no evidence for any.

I don't know what other atheists would say.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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08-02-2013, 09:21 PM (This post was last modified: 08-02-2013 09:28 PM by Vosur.)
RE: not believing in god and believing in no god
(08-02-2013 09:14 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Incidentally, I just happened to bump into a friend of mine yesterday who is studying the Gnostics at the graduate level. Yeah, she kind of thinks the whole gnostic/agnostic dichotomy is BS. Just sayin. (And for the haters out there in hater land suckin back their cool refreshing Haterade, she's studying religion, she's not a Theist)
I'd be more interested in the reasoning behind your friend's stance than the stance itself. Consider

Edit: Fixed a phrasing error.

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08-02-2013, 09:23 PM
RE: not believing in god and believing in no god
(08-02-2013 09:14 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Incidentally, I just happened to bump into a friend of mine yesterday who is studying the Gnostics at the graduate level. Yeah, she kind of thinks the whole gnostic/agnostic dichotomy is BS. Just sayin. (And for the haters out there in hater land suckin back their cool refreshing Haterade, she's studying religion, she's not a Theist)

Hey, Druid.

I too often find the distinction hazy. I know a lot of people who are very comfortable with it, but the question has yet to be answered satisfactorily for me. That is to say, in a way that makes me comfortable with it.

Hey, Asp.

Actually Atheism, according to many, makes no claim whatsoever. So an Atheist lacks a belief. WHY an Atheist lacks a belief is irrelevant. When you get into the why of it, you get into positive claim territory and many Atheists don't want to go there.

The distinction is not hazy, and there is a difference. The difference is not dependant on your understanding of it. It is not about why an Atheist lacks belief. A Gnostic Atheist does not only lack belief in the claim that a god exists, but believes in the claim that no god exists. Absense of evidence is not evidence for absense.

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08-02-2013, 09:28 PM
RE: not believing in god and believing in no god
(08-02-2013 09:14 PM)Ghost Wrote:  
Quote:An agnostic atheist doesn't make the claim that there is no god, only that he/she doesn't believe there is.

Could you just clarify something for me, brother?

If I asked said Atheist if there was a God, would their answer be, "I do not believe that there is a God?"

I can't tell you what every atheist would say. The main difference in answer would come from whether they are agnostic or gnostic.
A gnostic atheist would likely say "No"
While a agnostic atheist (me) would likely say "I do not know, but I find it very unlikely"

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08-02-2013, 09:36 PM
RE: not believing in god and believing in no god
Hey, Chas and Asp.

I'm just trying to figure out what is meant by, "...he/she doesn't believe there is."

That, to me, sounds different than lacking a belief.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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08-02-2013, 09:38 PM
RE: not believing in god and believing in no god
(08-02-2013 09:36 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Chas and Asp.

I'm just trying to figure out what is meant by, "...he/she doesn't believe there is."

That, to me, sounds different than lacking a belief.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt


Word play.

I have no belief in any gods because there is no evidence. Same thing.

I don't say "I believe there are no gods". Different thing.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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08-02-2013, 10:02 PM (This post was last modified: 08-02-2013 10:08 PM by Tartarus Sauce.)
RE: not believing in god and believing in no god
Perhaps it should be looked at from this perspective:
Certain "no" -> Implausible -> Possible -> Probable -> Certain "Yes"

The problem with the term possibility is that it can mean two things:
1. It can cover the full spectrum, since technically even an implausibility and a probability fall under the category of possibility.
2. Neither implausible nor plausible, but rather a "maybe"

When I refer to the existence of gods as being "possible," I should actually be saying that it is an improbability (which is still a "possibility" technically). Confusion might envelope about what degree of "possibility" is being expressed. So let me rephrase it: I consider the existence of gods to be highly improbable and can safely be considered as flawed concepts that have absolutely no backing from logic or empirical evidence, and therefore not relevant for consideration.

The only concept of a god which can't really have any kind of probability of existence attached to it would be one that is beyond the epistemological scope of human understanding. However, this could be considered just as irrelevant to human inquiry since no justified insights could be ascertained from a permanently unknowable entity, and couching an epistemological unknowable in a framework of epistemological knowable would an exercise in futility.


Quote:If I asked said Atheist if there was a God, would their answer be, "I do not believe that there is a God?
I would say no for the sake of brevity. By saying no, I am not denoting my position as a certain "no," I am answering the question that was asked. The usage of the word "belief" might be problematic in the phrasing of the question since theists seem to love playing the equivocation card on that one (conflating "to hold the position x" and "to hold the position of x without evidence").

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09-02-2013, 03:51 PM
RE: not believing in god and believing in no god
Hey, Chas.

Believe it or not, I still find that confusing in that I don't see the distinction.

How bout this. Multiple choice:
Chas, do you believe that there is a God?
A - Yes
B - No
C - I don't know
D - Other

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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09-02-2013, 03:54 PM
RE: not believing in god and believing in no god
(09-02-2013 03:51 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Chas.

Believe it or not, I still find that confusing in that I don't see the distinction.

How bout this. Multiple choice:
Chas, do you believe that there is a God?
A - Yes
B - No
C - I don't know
D - Other

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt

E. Your question is not phrased so as to be answered clearly.


I do not have a belief in God since there is no evidence of his existence.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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