not believing in god and believing in no god
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09-02-2013, 07:52 PM
RE: not believing in god and believing in no god
(09-02-2013 07:43 PM)kim Wrote:  I like to strip things down, too - especially with twisty things. I hope this helps. Shy

I don't believe ________… means: I do not have proof of something (non-existence, in this case) doubt / skeptical

I believe there is no ________… means: I do have proof … (non-esistance, in this case) certainty / absolute

The blank can be filled in with evolution or god or pretzels or masturbation.... etc.,.
Just in case it gets worse....

Proof - the act of testing or making trial of anything; test; trial

Evidence - is and includes everything that is used to reveal and determine the truth, and therefore is presumed to be true and related to a case. Giving or procuring evidence is the process of using those things that are either (a) presumed to be true, or (b) were in fact proven to be true by earlier evidence (truths) and demonstrates the broadening of the truth of a case. And the collection of evidence is in fact the act of determining; what is evidence. Whereas, the word evidence carries with it the presumption of it (the evidence) being seen as true, the where and how it fits; its relationship in and to the other evidence. In short, it goes from determining what is evidence, to evidence is determined; determining truth, to truth determined. Evidence is the currency by which one fulfills the burden of proof.

Scientific evidence usually goes towards supporting or rejecting a hypothesis.

One must always remember that the burden of proof is on the person making a contentious claim. Within science, this translates to the burden resting on presenters of a paper, in which the presenters argue for their specific findings. This paper is placed before a panel of judges where the presenter must defend the thesis against all challenges.

When evidence is contradictory to predicted expectations, the evidence and the ways of making it are often closely scrutinized (see experimenter's regress) and only at the end of this process is the hypothesis rejected: this can be referred to as 'refutation of the hypothesis'. The rules for evidence used by science are collected systematically in an attempt to avoid the bias inherent to anecdotal evidence.

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The atheist is a man who destroys the imaginary things which afflict the human race, and so leads men back to nature, to experience and to reason.
-Baron d'Holbach-
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09-02-2013, 07:57 PM
RE: not believing in god and believing in no god
(09-02-2013 07:43 PM)kim Wrote:  The blank can be filled in with evolution or god or pretzels or masturbation.... etc.,.
Kim, I tried to fill the blank in with masturbation but all I could prove was: believe it or not -- it's always the last resort! Big Grin
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09-02-2013, 07:58 PM
RE: not believing in god and believing in no god
Please, don't forget with that second one, there is the not before the thing ... that is the thing that can really throw one off.\\

One is essentially saying: I do have proof of something not in existence. Germanic languages can be a bitch.

I think in the end, I just feel like I'm a secular person who has a skeptical eye toward any extraordinary claim, carefully examining any extraordinary evidence before jumping to conclusions. ~ Eric ~ My friend ... who figured it out.
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09-02-2013, 08:04 PM
RE: not believing in god and believing in no god
Sorry Fstratz - I tweaked the editing after you copied it - hope it didn't effect your additions - but yes, it is a complex little equation.

I don't believe ________… means: I do not have proof of something (existence of god, in this case) doubt / skeptical

I believe there is not ________… means: I do have proof of something … (existence of god, in this case) certainty / absolute

I think in the end, I just feel like I'm a secular person who has a skeptical eye toward any extraordinary claim, carefully examining any extraordinary evidence before jumping to conclusions. ~ Eric ~ My friend ... who figured it out.
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09-02-2013, 08:07 PM
RE: not believing in god and believing in no god
(09-02-2013 08:04 PM)kim Wrote:  Sorry Fstratz - I tweaked the editing after you copied it - hope it didn't effect your additions - but yes, it is a complex little equation.

I don't believe ________… means: I do not have proof of something (existence of god, in this case) doubt / skeptical

I believe there is not ________… means: I do have proof of something … (existence of god, in this case) certainty / absolute
I don't believe in cheetos … means: I do not have proof of something (existence of god, in this case) doubt / skeptical

I believe there is not cheetos … means: I do have proof of something … (existence of god, in this case) certainty / absolute

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The atheist is a man who destroys the imaginary things which afflict the human race, and so leads men back to nature, to experience and to reason.
-Baron d'Holbach-
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09-02-2013, 08:09 PM
RE: not believing in god and believing in no god
(08-02-2013 08:08 PM)Drunkin Druid Wrote:  ive often heard theists say to atheists that not believing in god is the same as believing there is no god. then i often hear the atheist deny this stating the two are not the same. i must admit that i dont get this. they seem the same to me. can someone explain what the differance is if in fact there is one?

Do you believe there is a 1957 Chevy orbiting Pluto ?
There's your answer.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein Certified Ancient Astronaut Theorist and Levitating yogi, CAAT-LY.
Yeah, for verily I say unto thee, and this we know : Jebus no likey that which doth tickle thee unto thy nether regions.

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09-02-2013, 08:10 PM (This post was last modified: 09-02-2013 09:05 PM by kim.)
RE: not believing in god and believing in no god
(09-02-2013 08:07 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  I don't believe in cheetos … means: I do not have proof of something (existence of cheetos, in this case) doubt / skeptical

I believe there is not cheetos … means: I do have proof of something … (existence of cheetos, in this case) certainty / absolute

FIXT Tongue

I think in the end, I just feel like I'm a secular person who has a skeptical eye toward any extraordinary claim, carefully examining any extraordinary evidence before jumping to conclusions. ~ Eric ~ My friend ... who figured it out.
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09-02-2013, 08:12 PM
RE: not believing in god and believing in no god
(08-02-2013 08:08 PM)Drunkin Druid Wrote:  ive often heard theists say to atheists that not believing in god is the same as believing there is no god. then i often hear the atheist deny this stating the two are not the same. i must admit that i dont get this. they seem the same to me. can someone explain what the differance is if in fact there is one?
Great topic if you like to tie people up into logical knots. Otherwise, this question has been answered countless times.

BTW Druid, I don't like you. You are a pest.
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09-02-2013, 08:20 PM
RE: not believing in god and believing in no god
(09-02-2013 06:17 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Chas.

Come on. Don't give me that BS.

Hey, Anjele.

Thank you for that, but it's not quite helping. Your position is that there is gravity. So I'm not gaining any insight into my question.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
I was going off your example...yours made no more sense.

See here they are, the bruises, some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
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09-02-2013, 08:46 PM
RE: not believing in god and believing in no god
(09-02-2013 05:54 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Chas.

I'm not a lawyer and you're ducking a simple ass question, brother. Boourns.

Hey, Zat.

Quote:Is not believeing in "dark energy" the same as believing there is no such thing as "dark energy"?

I really want to say yes, but I have the feeling that's not the answer you were looking for Cool

Hey, Simon.

That sounded interesting but I didn't understand it. Do you think you could dumb it down for me?

Hey, Kim.

Quote:I don't believe in god.



I believe there is no god.



These are different things.

This is the problem. To some people, the distinction is clear as day. To others, such as myself, the distinction is clear as mud. If people who understand and accept the distinction keep responding to those that find it muddy with, "well it's clear," then that's not exactly helping the situation. And if the thought behind it is, "It's true, therefore you should just understand it," again, nothing is being helped.

I think in this case, in this thread, two people at least, the OP and me, are trying to understand the distinction. But we don't. So I think people need to address that directly and be open to taking new approaches to fostering understanding.

Let me try this example.
If someone says, "There is no such thing as gravity," then I think most of us here understand that in the same way.
If someones says, "I don't believe in gravity," I don't see the difference. Do you? If you do, help me to understand why.

If someone says "There is no such thing as gravity," I understand that to mean, "that man doesn't believe in gravity." Do you see it as two different things perhaps? If so, can you help me understand why?

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
If a person says, "there is no such thing as gravity" I understand it to mean, "that man thinks gravity doesn't exist." (Maybe he thinks angels hold all things down or whatever) It carries the weight of an assertive claim in denouncing the concept of gravity.

If a person says they don't believe in something such as gravity. It doesn't tell anything else about the ideas of what he could profess. He doubts something and that's just the basis of what you know. He isn't asserting anything but his doubt.

When my mom buys lottery tickets; I've told her I don't believe she is going to win. I don't say, she is not going to win. Because I don't know that she isn't going to win; I know that the odds for it are weak, but I don't proclaim knowledge to say the odds are impossible.

Many draw a line in distinction from believe and proclamation of knowledge.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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