not believing in god and believing in no god
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09-02-2013, 10:03 PM
RE: not believing in god and believing in no god
(09-02-2013 08:12 PM)Julius Wrote:  
(08-02-2013 08:08 PM)Drunkin Druid Wrote:  ive often heard theists say to atheists that not believing in god is the same as believing there is no god. then i often hear the atheist deny this stating the two are not the same. i must admit that i dont get this. they seem the same to me. can someone explain what the differance is if in fact there is one?
Great topic if you like to tie people up into logical knots. Otherwise, this question has been answered countless times.

BTW Druid, I don't like you. You are a pest.
fortunatly it is not required that you to like me.
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09-02-2013, 10:42 PM
RE: not believing in god and believing in no god
(09-02-2013 10:03 PM)Drunkin Druid Wrote:  
(09-02-2013 08:12 PM)Julius Wrote:  Great topic if you like to tie people up into logical knots. Otherwise, this question has been answered countless times.

BTW Druid, I don't like you. You are a pest.
fortunatly it is not required that you to like me.
From someone who doesn't even know how to use "Capitalization". I am crushed.

Sincerely,

Julius - the crushed.
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09-02-2013, 10:57 PM
RE: not believing in god and believing in no god
I regret not fleshing out my response in post#3, it might have saved some of the spikiness.

Here's what helped me understand the difference...

Burden of proof / atheism / theism:





... and anti-theism:





Ghost,
You've often said "definitions, schmefinitions" but (and maybe I'm biased because definitions are essential for what I do for a living) hopefully the above vids highlight why they are useful.

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09-02-2013, 11:16 PM
RE: not believing in god and believing in no god
Hey, Chas.

Quote:I can't seriously believe that you can't see the difference.

Then tell yourself that if it makes you feel better and move on with your life. If you'll excuse me, I still have work to do.

Hi, Julius.

You're contributing exactly nothing to this conversation, so how about you leave Druid alone, suck back a bottle of Haterade and go scream at your shadow or something. He and I are both here in good faith trying to understand something. Neither of us are attacking the idea or taking a flying shit on it, we just don't understand. What the fuck is so wrong with admitting that you don't understand something? We're trying to understand people that we don't currently understand, which is a damn shot more than I can say for you. So I'm happy that rewarding genuine curiosity with derision gives you a chubby, but I don't find it cute.

Hey, Kim.

Thank you for trying to break it down.

I just don't see a functional difference between not believing and believing there is not.

Proof or no proof seems irrelevant to me.

If you know for a fact that something is not there because there's been reams of tests and mountains of data and you got a degree in it, you think that something is not there.

If you suspect something is not there because you haven't seen any evidence or for any other reason.... you think that something is not there.

So what is the difference?

If I ask you if you think there's a God and you say "No" or you say "I don't believe there is", what's the difference? It amounts to the same thing.

Hey, Clyde.

Thank you for addressing my question so directly. I appreciate it.

I THINK I get what you mean about claim and doubt. But that doubter doesn't think that there's such a thing as gravity, does he not? "Is there gravity?" "I don't believe there is." If you don't believe there's gravity... you don't believe in it. I just plain don't see how that's any different than saying it doesn't exist.

I mean you talk about what they're willing to profess, and I think I can see a distinction there. I think. Don't get too excited just yet Cool But in both cases, they THINK the same thing. In both people's mind, there's no gravity. So how is that different?

If someone says that they don't believe black people are equal to white people, or if they say black people are not equal to white people, what's the difference? In both cases, the person doesn't think that black people are equal to white people. What do I care whether or not they're certain?

Quote:When my mom buys lottery tickets; I've told her I don't believe she is going to win. I don't say, she is not going to win. Because I don't know that she isn't going to win; I know that the odds for it are weak, but I don't proclaim knowledge to say the odds are impossible.

OK. That's probably the most easily understandable analogy anyone's ever made. Thank you.

But in your head, whether you suspect, or you believe she won't, or you know she won't, at no point do you imagine her winning the lottery. If you suspect there's no God, or believe there's no God, or know there's no God, God doesn't exist for you. There's no God in your head. So what's the big difference?

When people hear someone say that they believe something, many of them, myself included, think, "that's what they think." I don't think, "Are they certain or not because that makes all the difference in the world."

Maybe that's a connection that some people here aren't making? The connection between I believe --> I think.

Quote:Many draw a line in distinction from believe and proclamation of knowledge.

I can see that lol. I've been saying that some people see a clear distinction. I do not. I just don't. I've been on this fucking site for three years and I've never understood it. I'm sorry I don't know the secret handshake, but to me and a whole mess of other people, it's just sophistry.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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09-02-2013, 11:21 PM
RE: not believing in god and believing in no god
Ghost,

Druid seems to be doing nothing but trying to confuse skeptics...so I take issue with his posts.

And...I am not sorry for this either.

You prove me wrong, and I'll stop.

Julius
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09-02-2013, 11:38 PM
RE: not believing in god and believing in no god
(09-02-2013 11:21 PM)Julius Wrote:  Ghost,

Druid seems to be doing nothing but trying to confuse skeptics...so I take issue with his posts.

And...I am not sorry for this either.

You prove me wrong, and I'll stop.

Julius

nope. im not trying to confuse anybody. i asked a question because i honestly didnt see the differance. it may seem like i was trying to confuse people to you but things are not always what they seem.
i dont use caps because i dont care to. because, you know, it doesnt matter. its a little petty to concern yourself with such things.
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09-02-2013, 11:41 PM
RE: not believing in god and believing in no god
(09-02-2013 11:16 PM)Ghost Wrote:  ...
I just don't see a functional difference between not believing and believing there is not.

Proof or no proof seems irrelevant to me.
...

It's relevant because a claim is being made.

Not believing = not guilty
Believing not = innocent

See vids I just posted.

Not guilty =/= innocent.

Cheers
DLJ

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09-02-2013, 11:44 PM (This post was last modified: 09-02-2013 11:50 PM by Julius.)
RE: not believing in god and believing in no god
Quote:nope. im not trying to confuse anybody. i asked a question because i honestly didnt see the differance. it may seem like i was trying to confuse people to you but things are not always what they seem. i dont use caps because i dont care to. because, you know, it doesnt matter. its a little petty to concern yourself with such things.
Of course it is. You keep believing that, won't you?

Thanks,

Julius

PS. Punctuation and Capitalization...where the hell have you gone? Doesn't this guy see where he's freakin' messing up?
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09-02-2013, 11:45 PM
RE: not believing in god and believing in no god
im guessing that some moron who cant comprehend the question itself attempts to look intelligent by attacking the questioner.
and thanks to you folks that used actual intellect to answer the question.
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09-02-2013, 11:50 PM
RE: not believing in god and believing in no god
(09-02-2013 11:44 PM)Julius Wrote:  
Quote:nope. im not trying to confuse anybody. i asked a question because i honestly didnt see the differance. it may seem like i was trying to confuse people to you but things are not always what they seem. i dont use caps because i dont care to. because, you know, it doesnt matter. its a little petty to concern yourself with such things.
Of course it is. You keep believing that, won't you?

Thanks,

Julius
clown
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