ok atheists think with me :)
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26-09-2014, 07:46 PM
RE: ok atheists think with me :)
(26-09-2014 02:17 AM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  
(25-09-2014 11:39 PM)Shamma Wrote:  I just had a baby "c section" the previous month Big Grin

So cuz I'm soo polite Angel I couldn't leave you without a reply!

It was a hard month for me..

I like to understand people.. and go deep into their personalities !

So the best way to know why people become atheists is to ask atheists

Ohnestly I didn't read any of your replies sorry I couldn't !

I'll start now Tongue

and please forgive me if I didn't reply to you I don't have time Sadcryface although I'm sooo interested to discuss stuff with you guys.

At work.

HELLO! Big Grin

First, hope everything went well/okay with your operation. Smile

Second: Glad you've come back and are good/glad/happy to ask questions. Smile

Hope the good folks here can help you in your exploration of all that you seek to know/learn. Big Grin

Very much good cheers to you and yours and others of the forum.

thanx a lot for asking Blush I'm fine...!

I'm doing good and I like to ask questions and I'm thankful to you guys ... cuz you are so understanding and patient with me Tongue I have many many questions to ask..

I can't understand why people don't believe on God.. may be because I was raised in a faithful community and was theist all my life.. never experienced that or knew an atheist. Unsure
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26-09-2014, 08:08 PM
RE: ok atheists think with me :)
(26-09-2014 08:17 AM)Reltzik Wrote:  So can we be completely certain that there is no afterlife? No. But we can have a standard of evidence, which we'll call the burden of proof, for what it takes for us to believe something, and we can to a limited degree choose how credulous or skeptical we are. The evidence for an afterlife is roughly the same for the evidence for Leprechauns, and that means that to believe in afterlifes, we'd either have to break our rules and give the notion a special exemption from our standards of evidence (what's known as special pleading), or we'd have to lower those standards so far as to simultaneously believe in Leprechauns. If we wish to say that afterlives are very unlikely, but we should still act as if they're a reality, we must either make the same claim for Leprechauns and act as if THEY'RE real, or again engage in special pleading.

This same idea of a standard of evidence can be applied just as easily to the many, many different conceptions of gods.

EDIT: Oh, btw, there are atheists who believe in afterlives. They're just afterlives with no gods in them (otherwise they wouldn't be atheists).

wow Gasp what you wrote is a piece of art!

I really enjoyed it.. and I agree with most of what you said!

Then atheists should not be certain that God does not exist .. Ok... Then why choosing to be atheists?? I'm mean evolution and big bang can not be good evidences cuz we can also say that God exists and he made life this way Big Grin independent and create itself.. and he let big bang happen !

Then why choosing to disbelieve.. why not saying for example "I'm still thinking" ??

Is it to avoid commitment to a religion?!

Even If they chose religion.. they don't have to commit to any of its instructions.. many believers don't commit!

Is it because they had bad experiences with religion or religious people? then that will also be wrong.. cuz hating something doesn't make it wrong! or not exist!

Why tell me Big Grin I like the way you think .. you simplify things and make them crystal clear Tongue
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26-09-2014, 08:13 PM (This post was last modified: 26-09-2014 08:21 PM by Logisch.)
RE: ok atheists think with me :)
(26-09-2014 08:08 PM)Shamma Wrote:  wow Gasp what you wrote is a piece of art!

I really enjoyed it.. and I agree with most of what you said!

Then atheists should not be certain that God does not exist .. Ok... Then why choosing to be atheists?? I'm mean evolution and big bang can not be good evidences cuz we can also say that God exists and he made life this way Big Grin independent and create itself.. and he let big bang happen !

Then why choosing to disbelieve.. why not saying for example "I'm still thinking" ??

Is it to avoid commitment to a religion?!

Even If they chose religion.. they don't have to commit to any of its instructions.. many believers don't commit!

Is it because they had bad experiences with religion or religious people? then that will also be wrong.. cuz hating something doesn't make it wrong! or not exist!

Why tell me Big Grin I like the way you think .. you simplify things and make them crystal clear Tongue

I'm not sure if you're actually being serious.

If you are...

Atheism is a lack of belief in a god or gods. That's it. If you don't believe in Zeus or Ra, then congratulations, you're an atheist. The difference is that we are atheists of all gods, not just a few.

I don't "choose" to not believe in a god any more than you choose to wake up in the morning, or choose to eat food to live. It's not a "decision" people make because they want to. It's something that happens when believing in a god makes no sense to you, or the concept makes no sense, or you find it ridiculous.

There is no avoiding commitment to a religion. I think religions are bullshit, made up by man, nothing more. I have no motivation or reason to go back to religion, anymore than I have a burning desire to stab myself in the eye with an ice pick. I would rather drag my balls through 50 ft of broken glass on the tarmac on a 110F day than follow a religion.

There is nothing about it that made me leave because I had a bad experience. I see no evidence for the existence of a god, don't believe one. That's all it takes to be an atheist.

Official ordained minister of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Please pm me with prayer requests to his noodly goodness. Remember, he boiled for your sins and loves you. Carbo Diem! RAmen.
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26-09-2014, 08:13 PM
RE: ok atheists think with me :)
(26-09-2014 08:08 PM)Shamma Wrote:  
(26-09-2014 08:17 AM)Reltzik Wrote:  So can we be completely certain that there is no afterlife? No. But we can have a standard of evidence, which we'll call the burden of proof, for what it takes for us to believe something, and we can to a limited degree choose how credulous or skeptical we are. The evidence for an afterlife is roughly the same for the evidence for Leprechauns, and that means that to believe in afterlifes, we'd either have to break our rules and give the notion a special exemption from our standards of evidence (what's known as special pleading), or we'd have to lower those standards so far as to simultaneously believe in Leprechauns. If we wish to say that afterlives are very unlikely, but we should still act as if they're a reality, we must either make the same claim for Leprechauns and act as if THEY'RE real, or again engage in special pleading.

This same idea of a standard of evidence can be applied just as easily to the many, many different conceptions of gods.

EDIT: Oh, btw, there are atheists who believe in afterlives. They're just afterlives with no gods in them (otherwise they wouldn't be atheists).

wow Gasp what you wrote is a piece of art!

I really enjoyed it.. and I agree with most of what you said!

Then atheists should not be certain that God does not exist .. Ok... Then why choosing to be atheists?? I'm mean evolution and big bang can not be good evidences cuz we can also say that God exists and he made life this way Big Grin independent and create itself.. and he let big bang happen !

Then why choosing to disbelieve.. why not saying for example "I'm still thinking" ??

Is it to avoid commitment to a religion?!

Even If they chose religion.. they don't have to commit to any of its instructions.. many believers don't commit!

Is it because they had bad experiences with religion or religious people? then that will also be wrong.. cuz hating something doesn't make it wrong! or not exist!

Why tell me Big Grin I like the way you think .. you simplify things and make them crystal clear Tongue

Religion is made to fill in the gaps basically. If something cannot be explained, God did it. Just like before we knew what hurricane's were, people thought they were caused by Neptune and Poseidon. but now we know how they work and we know they do not exist or cause hurricane's.

"If you keep trying to better yourself that's enough for me. We don't decide which hand we are dealt in life, but we make the decision to play it or fold it" - Nishi Karano Kaze
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26-09-2014, 08:16 PM
RE: ok atheists think with me :)
(26-09-2014 09:56 AM)Impulse Wrote:  Shamma,

It seems that you have difficulty with the idea of humans not having a purpose and eventually dying and returning to nothingness.

exactly Big Grin

Quote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm going to guess that you don't have a problem with a flower not having a purpose and eventually dying and returning to nothingness. Yet a flower is also a living thing. Why is it easy to except the truth for a flower, but not for humans? Consider It's all simply the way the universe works.

ahaaa Gasp true .. never thought about a flower Tongue

I'll think about that.. !
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26-09-2014, 08:22 PM
RE: ok atheists think with me :)
(26-09-2014 08:13 PM)Logisch Wrote:  
(26-09-2014 08:08 PM)Shamma Wrote:  wow Gasp what you wrote is a piece of art!

I really enjoyed it.. and I agree with most of what you said!

Then atheists should not be certain that God does not exist .. Ok... Then why choosing to be atheists?? I'm mean evolution and big bang can not be good evidences cuz we can also say that God exists and he made life this way Big Grin independent and create itself.. and he let big bang happen !

Then why choosing to disbelieve.. why not saying for example "I'm still thinking" ??

Is it to avoid commitment to a religion?!

Even If they chose religion.. they don't have to commit to any of its instructions.. many believers don't commit!

Is it because they had bad experiences with religion or religious people? then that will also be wrong.. cuz hating something doesn't make it wrong! or not exist!

Why tell me Big Grin I like the way you think .. you simplify things and make them crystal clear Tongue

I'm not sure if you're actually being serious.

If you are...

Atheism is a lack of belief in a god or gods. That's it. If you don't believe in Zeus or Ra, then congratulations, you're an atheist. The difference is that we are atheists of all gods, not just a few.

I don't "choose" to not believe in a god any more than you choose to wake up in the morning, or choose to eat food to live. It's not a "decision" people make because they want to. It's something that happens when believing in a god makes no sense to you, or the concept makes no sense, or you find it ridiculous.

There is no avoiding commitment to a religion. I think religions are bullshit, made up by man, nothing more. I have no motivation or reason to go back to religion, anymore than I have a burning desire to stab myself in the eye with an ice pick. I would rather drag my balls through 50 ft of broken glass on the tarmac on a 110F day than follow a religion.

There is nothing about it that made me leave because I had a bad experience. I see no evidence for the existence of a god, don't believe one. That's all it takes to be an atheist.

I'm serious !!

I really needed what you said just now..!

I understood atheism like I never did before.. really no jokes Big Grin

thanx
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26-09-2014, 08:59 PM
RE: ok atheists think with me :)
(26-09-2014 08:22 PM)Shamma Wrote:  
(26-09-2014 08:13 PM)Logisch Wrote:  I'm not sure if you're actually being serious.

If you are...

Atheism is a lack of belief in a god or gods. That's it. If you don't believe in Zeus or Ra, then congratulations, you're an atheist. The difference is that we are atheists of all gods, not just a few.

I don't "choose" to not believe in a god any more than you choose to wake up in the morning, or choose to eat food to live. It's not a "decision" people make because they want to. It's something that happens when believing in a god makes no sense to you, or the concept makes no sense, or you find it ridiculous.

There is no avoiding commitment to a religion. I think religions are bullshit, made up by man, nothing more. I have no motivation or reason to go back to religion, anymore than I have a burning desire to stab myself in the eye with an ice pick. I would rather drag my balls through 50 ft of broken glass on the tarmac on a 110F day than follow a religion.

There is nothing about it that made me leave because I had a bad experience. I see no evidence for the existence of a god, don't believe one. That's all it takes to be an atheist.

I'm serious !!

I really needed what you said just now..!

I understood atheism like I never did before.. really no jokes Big Grin

thanx

Why don't you believe in bigfoot? Consider

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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26-09-2014, 09:32 PM
RE: ok atheists think with me :)
Wrong thread...

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26-09-2014, 11:13 PM
RE: ok atheists think with me :)
(26-09-2014 07:46 PM)Shamma Wrote:  thanx a lot for asking Blush I'm fine...!

I'm doing good and I like to ask questions and I'm thankful to you guys ... cuz you are so understanding and patient with me Tongue I have many many questions to ask..

I can't understand why people don't believe on God.. may be because I was raised in a faithful community and was theist all my life.. never experienced that or knew an atheist. Unsure

Hey! Asking questions is good.

Some of the questions you're asking are of the amazingly, awesomely, stupendously, ginormously, huge/deep kind. Smile

The sort of questions people have been asking for both a very long time and for a lot of different/similar reasons.

In regards to god(s), Logisch pretty much nailed it.

As for the other things, like evolution and 'The big expansion'... they are actally two different, really big ginormous questions. Smile

Which, in a way, have nothing to do with any gods at all.

Hope things are going fine/swell for you and yours. Much cheers to you.

Much cheers to all.
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27-09-2014, 12:21 AM
RE: ok atheists think with me :)
(26-09-2014 08:08 PM)Shamma Wrote:  
(26-09-2014 08:17 AM)Reltzik Wrote:  So can we be completely certain that there is no afterlife? No. But we can have a standard of evidence, which we'll call the burden of proof, for what it takes for us to believe something, and we can to a limited degree choose how credulous or skeptical we are. The evidence for an afterlife is roughly the same for the evidence for Leprechauns, and that means that to believe in afterlifes, we'd either have to break our rules and give the notion a special exemption from our standards of evidence (what's known as special pleading), or we'd have to lower those standards so far as to simultaneously believe in Leprechauns. If we wish to say that afterlives are very unlikely, but we should still act as if they're a reality, we must either make the same claim for Leprechauns and act as if THEY'RE real, or again engage in special pleading.

This same idea of a standard of evidence can be applied just as easily to the many, many different conceptions of gods.

EDIT: Oh, btw, there are atheists who believe in afterlives. They're just afterlives with no gods in them (otherwise they wouldn't be atheists).

wow Gasp what you wrote is a piece of art!

I really enjoyed it.. and I agree with most of what you said!

Then atheists should not be certain that God does not exist .. Ok... Then why choosing to be atheists?? I'm mean evolution and big bang can not be good evidences cuz we can also say that God exists and he made life this way Big Grin independent and create itself.. and he let big bang happen !

Then why choosing to disbelieve.. why not saying for example "I'm still thinking" ??

Is it to avoid commitment to a religion?!

Even If they chose religion.. they don't have to commit to any of its instructions.. many believers don't commit!

Is it because they had bad experiences with religion or religious people? then that will also be wrong.. cuz hating something doesn't make it wrong! or not exist!

Why tell me Big Grin I like the way you think .. you simplify things and make them crystal clear Tongue

Oy. The definitions conversation. We forum regulars really need to make a sticky or a standard-linkable summary of this, because it comes up so often.

There are multiple different definitions of atheism in play in our society. You're clearly talking about atheism in terms of someone who believes that a particular god, or any god, does not exist. (I'm guessing you're referring to some flavor of the Judeo-Christian-Islaamic God, but you haven't clarified.) This is a very common definition.

Logisch put forth another definition: Someone who does NOT believe a god exists. The distinction, as you seem to have grasped, is that this definition includes people who have no firm belief either way on the existence of a god, while the previous definition does not. This definition is not used as commonly as the first (though it's becoming more popular), but it IS much more common among people who identify as atheists. If someone says they're an atheist, this is what they likely mean.

This distinction, between the atheist who believes that God does not exist, and the one who simply says that she does not believe that God exists, has its own terminology. The first is a strong atheist, because they are making the stronger, bolder claim. The second is a weak atheist, because they are making a weaker, more passive claim. (There is no disparagement meant by the word "weak" here.... except maybe by a few strong atheists who consider the weak atheists to be backing down from a fight.)

There is another set of definitions relevant to this: Agnosticism. Agnosticism literally means a state of not knowing, and generally refers to one's certainty in a belief, especially towards a set of religious claims. An agnostic is one who proclaims that they do not know, or that they have significant doubts. HOW certain one needs to be to not be agnostic is not something on which there exists clear consensus. An agnostic atheist can therefore be one who does not believe a God exists, but has some degree of uncertainty, or allows for some possibility that they are in error. It is possible to be a weak agnostic atheist, or a strong agnostic atheist... the latter being one who believes that God does not exist, but acknowledges the possibility of error. Agnostic is contrasted with Gnostic. (I hate this term because it refers to a particular branch of Christianity, and is thus confusing, but it's what's being used.) A gnostic has at least a strong degree of confidence in their position, admitting to few or no doubts. A gnostic atheist will by definition be a strong atheist. Notice, also, that it is possible to be a gnostic Christian (one who believes with firm confidence and little doubt in the religion) or an agnostic Christian (one who has significant doubts and incomplete confidence in the religion).

I tend to identify as an atheist in casual conversation. This is a half-truth, adopted so that I can answer a question in a word rather than in an essay. (My posts in this thread aside, I do not wish all of my answers to be essays.) It communicates my religious practice (none), whether I believe that some god exists (I don't), and which camp I tend to fall in. It would be more accurate to describe me as ignostic on the subject of whether or not a god exists.

An ignostic is someone who says that the question is unanswerable, because they do not have a clear understanding of what the question means. In this case, I do not have a clear understanding of what people mean when they discuss a god. What counts as a god, and what does not? Ancient Egyptians worshiped their Pharaohs as gods... is this enough in itself to make them count as gods? Most people would say no, but sociologists or cultural anthropologists might say yes, because of the impact these individuals had on their societies. If yes, then I do believe that gods existed in the past, and (in the form of various cult leaders) exist in the present. Is a god a spiritual being? I'm ignostic towards spiritual things... I literally don't understand the concept of what counts as spirit, and what doesn't. It's not clearly defined. Does something have to have memories, a personality, emotions, desires, intelligence, etc to be a god, or can a non-sentient, non-sapient thing be a god?

Some ignostics have no conception whatsoever of a god. In my case, I have too many conceptions. Someone asks me if I think the Christian god exists. Which god are they talking about? The wrathful one who would consign every single one of us to eternal torment if his own son hadn't taken the punishment for us? The kind, merciful one? The moral one who gives us a conscience and tells us not to kill, or the one who orders genocides? Can they be the same? The one who is identical to his son, or the one who is distinct from his son, or the one who is kinda-both and kinda-neither at the same time, or does it even matter? Asking me whether I believe in the Christian god leaves me unable to answer your question, because I do not know which god you are asking about. Before I can answer, I have to pin down which conception of the Christian god you are asking about. Only once I've done that can I answer whether I believe it exists, believe it doesn't exist, or neither, and how confident I am on the subject. This is because how I answer will depend on which conception of god we're talking about.

Some I can identify as logically incoherent and self-contradictory. Most concepts of omnipotence and omniscience are self-contradictory. Can God create a rock He cannot lift? What about the God who grants the prayers of any two of his followers... and a dozen followers are praying for mutually-opposed teams to win Saturday's football game? Both sets of prayers cannot be answered. Towards these conceptions of God, I am a strong, gnostic atheist. Some, while not so-thoroughly disprovable, strike me as patently absurd. For example, a god that created the entire universe just for us... a sphere roughly 30 billion-with-a-b light-years across... THAT WE CAN OBSERVE... and most of it hard vacuum that we could never survive in. Is this within the realm of possibility? I acknowledge it. I also believe it to be false. Towards this, I am an strong, agnostic atheist. Some notions of God put forward by (usually liberal) Christians are kinda-vague and impossible to test. The Deistic god for example... the one who set the universe spinning like a top, perhaps to some pre-engineered script, and hasn't fussed with it since. Towards that god, I am a weak atheist.

Oh, and there's one more category of god-concept: The non-concept. Something so vague, so unambitious, that it's essentially saying nothing. To identify these, employ the Toaster Test: Would a toaster count as a god, under the proffered definition? "I feel that there's SOMETHING that exists out there." A TOASTER EXISTS SOMEWHERE OUT THERE! I refuse to consider these as concepts of god... that's just not the right word for what is (not) being described.

I also acknowledge that I haven't encountered and considered all concepts of a god. I've looked at a great many concepts of god, including most of the conventional ones, and I've rejected (did not adopt, ie, did not believe) all of them. But I'll never exhaust all the possibilities and beliefs out there. There just isn't enough time in the day. At some point I have to say, hey, I don't believe in any of these so far, time to either move on or at least relegate it to the odd free hour as a hobby.

So overall, I'm an ignostic, weak atheist.
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