ok atheists think with me :)
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28-09-2014, 08:09 PM
RE: ok atheists think with me :)
(07-09-2014 02:17 PM)Shamma Wrote:  Hello Sleepy

Guten Tag.

Quote:atheists .. !


You called?

Quote:I really can't imagine that you guys don't believe on the judgement day!!

Why are you singling us out for this? An adherent of any religion besides Christianity doesn't believe in judgement day either.

Quote:Do you really think that all theses life, creatures, humanity .. are going to "nowhere"

You mean to assume we end as we begin [non-existing]? Yes, I see no good reason to believe otherwise.

Quote:and exist for nothing .. Only for the purpose of existence??

Existence before essence, my friend. Existence simply is, whatever meaning we ascribe to it is subservient to its primacy. Claiming it is all for "nothing" though seems much bleaker than the reality. It is only purposeless if you choose to believe so. Meaning is not meaningless simply because it is subjective, in fact that's all that meaning IS when you get down to it.

Quote:Then why is everything matching ?? The circle of life .. animals plants food ... etc
I don't understand what you mean by "everything is matching." Could you clarify?

And we have all these nifty scientific explanations for the intricacies of life and its characteristics, ecological structures, mechanics, etc. You should check them out sometime.

Quote:every creature has its own environment and necessities for living..
That's evolution at work, fascinating process I tell you.

Quote:What about human brains .. how intelligent ! How did this happen?? could it possibly be by chance , natural selection, evolution... !!

A statistically weighted chance, to be precise. If you already understand natural selection and evolutionary mechanics, you should already have the answer to that question.

Quote:I really would like to think about these stuff with you guys.. just give me reasons why would someone not believe on a creator for all of this?? I mean really what makes you so sure .. and take the risk of disbelieving ??

Risk of disbelieving? In order for risk assessment to occur, the threat must be determined as genuine to begin with. The fact that there are multiple conflicting claimed threats that require contradicting actions to avoid seems to put everybody at the same level of risk, you can hardly single us out as the most vulnerable group.

Why should anybody provide you with reasons that a creator wasn't necessary for any of your...erm..."premises" when you have yet to establish that a creator IS necessary to begin with?

So there you have it, I came along "to think with you." Now I'm waiting for you to catch up.

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29-09-2014, 02:06 PM
RE: ok atheists think with me :)
(07-09-2014 02:17 PM)Shamma Wrote:  I really can't imagine that you guys don't believe on the judgement day!!

Oh but I do mon ami. I just think every day is judgment day. Silly Shamma.

#sigh
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29-09-2014, 02:16 PM
RE: ok atheists think with me :)
(07-09-2014 02:17 PM)Shamma Wrote:  Hello Sleepy


atheists .. !

I really can't imagine that you guys don't believe on the judgement day!!

Do you really think that all theses life, creatures, humanity .. are going to "nowhere"

and exist for nothing .. Only for the purpose of existence??

Then why is everything matching ?? The circle of life .. animals plants food ... etc

every creature has its own environment and necessities for living..

What about human brains .. how intelligent ! How did this happen?? could it possibly be by chance , natural selection, evolution... !!

I really would like to think about these stuff with you guys.. just give me reasons why would someone not believe on a creator for all of this?? I mean really what makes you so sure .. and take the risk of disbelieving ??

Actually the concept I have the most trouble with is that a perfect being who exists outside space and time would want to create an imperfect world filled with imperfect beings, only to destroy it after a short amount of time (relative to eternity), after which some of these imperfect beings will be whisked away to worship him for the "rest" of eternity. So basically the point of all this was that so he would end up with a bunch of beings to tell him how wonderful he is? A being who is perfect is also that much of an egomaniac?
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01-10-2014, 03:35 PM
RE: ok atheists think with me :)
(07-09-2014 02:17 PM)Shamma Wrote:  Hello Sleepy


atheists .. !

I really can't imagine that you guys don't believe on the judgement day!!

Do you really think that all theses life, creatures, humanity .. are going to "nowhere"

and exist for nothing .. Only for the purpose of existence??

Then why is everything matching ?? The circle of life .. animals plants food ... etc

every creature has its own environment and necessities for living..

What about human brains .. how intelligent ! How did this happen?? could it possibly be by chance , natural selection, evolution... !!

I really would like to think about these stuff with you guys.. just give me reasons why would someone not believe on a creator for all of this?? I mean really what makes you so sure .. and take the risk of disbelieving ??

And which god is it that you believe in? If you would provide this info, I could give a more appropriate response to the inquiry. Thanks.

"You're very clever, young man, very clever, but it's turtles all the way down!"
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27-10-2014, 08:35 PM
RE: ok atheists think with me :)
(27-09-2014 01:01 PM)WitchSabrina Wrote:  
(27-09-2014 01:51 AM)Shamma Wrote:  who said I don't ? Big Grin

I believe that everything is possible..

the existence of bigfoot doesn't contradict with my religion anyway Sleepy

However! I believe that ..

information enters the human mind through his senses .. eyes ears hands.. etc

and based on that.. human imagination "including imaginary things" are created by the thoughts and information he gained from real life!

let's say .. Sindbad, he is an imaginary cartoon character !!

what I think is that people created this character from the story of Solemon the king and prophet of jews Big Grin

see what I mean Tongue

So.. the same goes for bigfoot.



So
You see the bible as just a story? Written by man FOR man?

I think the bible contains many mistakes cuz as you said it's written by man and was manipulated through time to match people needs ! With all my respect to bible and christians Angel

I believe on Jesus and I believe on his book.. But I also believe that it has many non true knowledge!

For example.. it's not just to say that Jesus suffered for all human beings .. and carries their sins! Also it's not logical to say that God is three..! and has a son..!

Why would God want to have a son?? and why having one son only? if he likes kids why not having many children... and why God would have to marry or reproduce with a woman to have a child while he can create this son without a mother nor a father like what he did with Adam!!

and I don't like it when the bible accuse Eve for the sin of Adam!! And I don't think Adam did any sin Big Grin they ate couple of fruits, that doesn't make them criminals!!

I think Adam and Eve were given a test to disobey God .. this means that the have free well to obey or disobey..! And I believe God made this test to make them ready to be placed on earth and face other choices!

I think we are hear on earth not because of our father's sin!! But to learn and evolve into better and fine beings!!

You were not the same years ago!! right? that's because of the mistakes you did and learn from them .. that's because of the sufferings you faced and became stronger Cool

You are now better than yesterday .. and knowledge never ends!

That's what I believe Big Grin
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27-10-2014, 08:42 PM
RE: ok atheists think with me :)
Blink

Let me give you a crumb...

A paper I wrote on this, to help you understand the whole Xtian Triune theory

###########
Professor V############
Christian Spirituality Vision REL 123
March 19 2014

The development of the Christian doctrine of the Trinity

For a church to be considered a New Testament church it shall accept the biblical New Testament as its sole authority for all matters of faith. A “true” biblical church shall not accept any authority for its faith and daily practice, outside of the New Testament Scriptures. This does not discard the importance of the Old Testament Scriptures by any means. The church is not based on the biblical Old Testament because that is the record of God’s dealing with Israel. In the New Testament you will find a specific pattern and instructions from God concerning the church. The followers of the New Testament church model believe in the irrefutable word of God, that the Bible is complete as written, and it is, “… Given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.” (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

New Testament church parishioners believe that any hierarchy outside of the local church, is unsupported by Scripture. They think that Christ is the head, and that the New Testament Scriptures are the “true” churches only sole authority. I always find it amusing that with all the religions in the world, multiple versions of God or gods, and various holy books and ideologies of creation, that the believer of each religion thinks the believers of other religions are wrong, and that their own belief is the truth, the will and the way of the one “true” God. Even within Christianity, if every Christian who ever called another Christian, not a “true” Christian was removed from earth, there would be no Christians.

The Congregational style of a New Testament church is basically a biblical form of church government. Final authority in a New Testament church rests with the delegation. Each member has an equal democratic vote. They believe that the Bible, specifically the New Testament teaches that churches are to be governed by their own congregation following strict biblical guidelines.

In Trinitarian theology, the father gives everything he has, his very being, as a free gift to his son. Since the Son has everything that the father has, then they are in fact equal (Albl 139). In the Old Testament, the Holy Spirit is closely associated with God’s gift of prophecy. For example, “the Lord took some of the spirit from Moses and gave it to the elders, and they were able to prophesy also (Num 11:25). In the New Testament, the Holy Spirit is closely associated with the creation of God’s son in human form. For example, Mary conceived Jesus not through ordinary human means, but “through the Holy Spirit” (Matt1:20). In essence, just as Jesus comes in the father’s name, so the Holy Spirit comes in Jesus’ name (Albl 150). I define the Holy Spirit as God’s breath, his very soul, that of which he can giveth away to create life itself.

The church understands such self-emptying on the part of God as simultaneously the fulfillment of human existence, whose transformative effects are extended in the church in the world through the work of the Holy Spirit (Mueller 44). As such, parishioners of the New Testament church believe that they can follow this example by sharing the Holy Spirit with others. This is “living through Christ” by spreading the good word, in line with strict interpretation of biblical reference.

In the New Testament, outside of the story of Christ in his teachings, is the insistent belief through Scripture that the end times or transition into the new world in the second coming of Christ to take his place as king of the world would occur at any moment. “That Christ would come soon is an expectation which appears even in the latter writings of the New Testament. It is present in almost every stratum” (Moule 141). A rationalist may posit that today things are going on exactly as they were before, and thus there will never be an end to the world. Believers in the New Testament think that the real mistake here is to make time the determining standard at all. A good analogy of this is that the Christian hope is not measured in terms of time, but in terms of the journey continuing to its completion; the incarnation. The question should not be when is the end of the world, but what can I do to be ready for it? (Moule 148).

Now let’s go back in time to the very formation, fabrication of the Christian faith, the Trinity concept and successful establishment of the Christian religion. We must begin with the immeasurable impact that Emperor Constantine had on the spread of Christianity, and successful suppression of incumbent Roman pagan beliefs. Legend has it that Emperor Constantine saw two stars cross in the sky, in which he took to be a sign from God that Christianity was the only true faith. While his conversion to Christianity in 312 was not truly the moment Christianity came to be the official religion of the Roman Empire, it definitely was one of the major contributing factors for its subsequent acceptance.

Emperor Constantine conducted a religious-based crusade against Licinius in a war to rescue Christians on the east from further persecution. In the years 312 to 313 Emperor Constantine began a systematic policy in which he gave honors, privileges and financial donations to the Christian church and their clergy. In 324, as the unchallenged controller of the East, he prohibited by Royal decree any cultic activities which until then fell under the traditional religions of the Roman Empire, and this is when the status of Christianity as the official religion of the state and its rulers was affirmed (Lieu 7).

Religious scholars concede that Emperor Constantine not only convened important council’s sessions, but also either presided over them, or appointed a Royal official to preside in his place. This reduced the very role of bishops and councils such as Nicaea and Tyre to utter insignificance by assimilating them to members of the Imperial consilium, whose advice was not binding on the Emperor. All decisions taken at the Nicene Council were made by Emperor Constantine alone, since he could completely disregard the advisory opinions of the bishops whom he had summoned to the Council (Lieu 8).

Some scholars contend that Emperor Constantine’s influence was minimal, and merely sat in on the councils out of personal interest. However, when we look at the Council of Nicaea of 359, we see that Emperor Constantine again took a prominent role of control in the theological debate. Once the foundation of Christianity as a predominant religion of the Empire had been successfully established, Emperor Constantine later relinquished some of his control and influence by putting a seal of approval on the rulings of bishops declared at councils. The governors of provinces were not even allowed to rescind what they had decided, for he said the priests of God were more trustworthy than any magistrate (Lieu 10).

We can trace back the very beginning of the entitlement mentality by church hierarchy to Emperor Constantine and his enabling policies. No matter what his crime, a bishop could only be deposed and exiled, not legally tortured and executed (Lieu 17). I am sure this was fundamental in developing the culture within the church of dealing with any indiscretions internally, and not invoking the authority of the legal system. This of course has led to much abuse throughout history. One has only to watch the news these days to see on a routine basis, some priest or other has been exposed for having performed a plethora of transgressions, hidden by the church by simply moving the clergy member to a new area. This mentality just exposes more people to being victimized.

On the basis of Christian faith and the Trinity concept; the father, the son and the Holy Spirit, the first Council of Nicaea in 325 called together by Emperor Constantine, worked to establish a settlement of the issue of the relationship between father and the son. The focus primarily was on defining Jesus Christ as a deity. Establishment of the Holy Spirit was largely unaddressed until after the father and son relationship was settled in 362. After Nicaea, some bishops continued to prefer a term which had been discussed and rejected by the Council: homoiousios, in the sense of the son ‘being of like substance’ with the father. There were other bishops who were antagonistic to the term homoiousios because it was not biblical (O’Collins 184). Seven years later, the Trinitarian terminology was officially adopted after first Council Constantinople.

In its letter to Pope Damascus, a post conciliar synod confessed ‘one divinity, power, or substance’ in ‘three most perfect hypostasesin’ (O’Collins 185). At the Trinitarian level, Constantinople I reaffirmed the Nicene Council confession of faith that the son was ’of one substance’ with the father, as well as teaching the divinity of the Holy Spirit (O’Collins 186). Thus, the official establishment of Christian doctrine regarding the Trinity of the father, the son, and the Holy Spirit was initiated.

Works Cited:

Mueller, J.J., Theological Foundations: Concepts and Methods for Understanding the Christian Faith. Winona: Anselm Academic, Christian Brothers Publications, 2011. Print.

Albl, Martin C. Reason, Faith, and Tradition: Explorations in Catholic Theology. Winona: Anselm Academic, Christian Brothers Publications, 2009. Print.

The Catholic Study Bible: The New American Bible 2nd ed. Oxford: Oxford University press, Inc., 2011. Print.

Moule, C. F. D., The birth of the New Testament. New York: Harper & Row, 1962. Print

Lieu, Samuel N. C., and Montserrat, Dominic, Constantine: History, Historiography, and Legend. London: Routledge, 2002. Print.

O'Collins, Gerald, Christology: A Biblical, Historical, and Systematic Study of Jesus. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2009. Print.

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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27-10-2014, 10:28 PM
RE: ok atheists think with me :)
Hello again! Big Grin

(27-10-2014 08:35 PM)Shamma Wrote:  ....And I don't like it when the bible accuse Eve for the sin of Adam!! And I don't think Adam did any sin Big Grin they ate couple of fruits, that doesn't make them criminals!!

I think Adam and Eve were given a test to disobey God .. this means that the have free well to obey or disobey..! And I believe God made this test to make them ready to be placed on earth and face other choices!

Okay, there's a big problem with this whole idea/narrative.

By the tale Adam and Eve (Lets not worry about the older tale that included Lilith) were created innocent. Perfect and innocent. They did not know of 'evil' or 'sin' or anything that was 'bad'. Nor even the outcomes/consequences of doing such things (Since, y'know, innocent). By such things... Adam ad Eve could not have anything resembling 'free will'. Since their created natures were essentially 'incomplete'.

So... without the understanding of the consequences of their actions... HOW could they possibly understand the out come of going against god's instructions?

Putting something in front of a child and simply saying "Don't do (X)!", with the child having NO IDEA as to what (X) even is... and then being all outraged when said child goes does (x) is.... well... 'Dickish' is the best/harshest descriptive word I can think of.

It's wrong and shows how primitive the people's were who created this woeful myth.

(27-10-2014 08:35 PM)Shamma Wrote:  That's what I believe Big Grin

That's great. I am hoping you're thinking about the points people are raising about what you say you believe and working through the problems with what you've posted.

Much cheers to you and yours.
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27-10-2014, 10:53 PM
RE: ok atheists think with me :)
damn it shamma, why did you have to revive this stupid fucking thread? Have you not learned that you lost already? At least do the decent thing and give up already and make a new thread about something else like everyone else does.

Cheese and Crackers.

Also, there is no such thing as "Non True Knowledge"


Knowledge, Noun

facts, information, and skills acquired by a person through experience or education; the theoretical or practical understanding of a subject.

Fact - Noun
a thing that is indisputably the case.


My Youtube channel if anyone is interested.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEkRdbq...rLEz-0jEHQ
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28-10-2014, 04:45 AM
RE: ok atheists think with me :)
I just want to touch on one thing you said: "take the risk of disbelieving". That sounds like Pascal's Wager: better believe in God on the off chance that he's real. Unfortunately, that makes sense if you're dealing with a dichotomy: either believe in one God or not. But there are thousands of Gods, so... which one?

Like someone said: Do you worry about all the heavens and hells of the thousands of past and present religions? Do you worry about Zeus, Poseidon, Hades? Do you worry about Odin, Loki, Thor? What about Ra, Set?

I can show you 2674+ gods (that number is real), but I'm sure the vast majority of people don't even know them (neither I did) and don't consider worshiping them.

And if God is real, I like to think that if he is really infinitely good and infinitely just as everyone says, then he will not punish me for thinking logically about the world around me and for using the brain he himself gave to me.

孤独 - The Out Crowd
Life is a flash of light between two eternities of darkness.
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28-10-2014, 07:39 AM
RE: ok atheists think with me :)
(27-10-2014 08:35 PM)Shamma Wrote:  I think the bible contains many mistakes cuz as you said it's written by man and was manipulated through time to match people needs ! With all my respect to bible and christians Angel

I believe on Jesus and I believe on his book.. But I also believe that it has many non true knowledge!
(27-10-2014 08:35 PM)Shamma Wrote:  For example.. it's not just to say that Jesus suffered for all human beings .. and carries their sins! Also it's not logical to say that God is three..! and has a son..!

Why would God want to have a son?? and why having one son only? if he likes kids why not having many children... and why God would have to marry or reproduce with a woman to have a child while he can create this son without a mother nor a father like what he did with Adam!!

and I don't like it when the bible accuse Eve for the sin of Adam!! And I don't think Adam did any sin Big Grin they ate couple of fruits, that doesn't make them criminals!!

I think Adam and Eve were given a test to disobey God .. this means that the have free well to obey or disobey..! And I believe God made this test to make them ready to be placed on earth and face other choices!

If you believe parts of it are flat-out incorrect, and you cannot prove the parts you do believe in, why believe it at all?
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