ok atheists think with me :)
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28-10-2014, 09:21 AM
RE: ok atheists think with me :)
(07-09-2014 02:17 PM)Shamma Wrote:  I really would like to think about these stuff with you guys.. just give me reasons why would someone not believe on a creator for all of this??

One of the other things I notice when I look at myself and the world around me is that beings have brains and nothings don't.

(07-09-2014 02:17 PM)Shamma Wrote:  I mean really what makes you so sure .. and take the risk of disbelieving ??

Looks like a fable, reads like a fable, is a fable.
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28-10-2014, 10:00 AM (This post was last modified: 28-10-2014 10:41 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: ok atheists think with me :)
(26-09-2014 08:08 PM)Shamma Wrote:  
(26-09-2014 08:17 AM)Reltzik Wrote:  So can we be completely certain that there is no afterlife? No. But we can have a standard of evidence, which we'll call the burden of proof, for what it takes for us to believe something, and we can to a limited degree choose how credulous or skeptical we are. The evidence for an afterlife is roughly the same for the evidence for Leprechauns, and that means that to believe in afterlifes, we'd either have to break our rules and give the notion a special exemption from our standards of evidence (what's known as special pleading), or we'd have to lower those standards so far as to simultaneously believe in Leprechauns. If we wish to say that afterlives are very unlikely, but we should still act as if they're a reality, we must either make the same claim for Leprechauns and act as if THEY'RE real, or again engage in special pleading.

This same idea of a standard of evidence can be applied just as easily to the many, many different conceptions of gods.

EDIT: Oh, btw, there are atheists who believe in afterlives. They're just afterlives with no gods in them (otherwise they wouldn't be atheists).

wow Gasp what you wrote is a piece of art!

I really enjoyed it.. and I agree with most of what you said!

Then atheists should not be certain that God does not exist .. Ok... Then why choosing to be atheists?? I'm mean evolution and big bang can not be good evidences cuz we can also say that God exists and he made life this way Big Grin independent and create itself.. and he let big bang happen !

Then why choosing to disbelieve.. why not saying for example "I'm still thinking" ??

Is it to avoid commitment to a religion?!

Even If they chose religion.. they don't have to commit to any of its instructions.. many believers don't commit!

Is it because they had bad experiences with religion or religious people? then that will also be wrong.. cuz hating something doesn't make it wrong! or not exist!

Why tell me Big Grin I like the way you think .. you simplify things and make them crystal clear Tongue

Do you "chose" to *disbelieve* in 1957 Chevys orbiting Pluto ?
Do you suspend disbelief in teapots orbiting the sun ?
Your god is equally preposterous.

I hope you know, (or perhaps some day you will actually study your Bible with a real scholar) that for most of their history the Hebrews in the OT did NOT believe in immortality, or heaven (as Christians think of it today), and certainly not in a "judgment day". You do know, I hope, that was cooked up later by human priests to scare dumb people.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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02-11-2014, 07:37 PM
RE: ok atheists think with me :)
(27-10-2014 10:28 PM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  Hello again! Big Grin

(27-10-2014 08:35 PM)Shamma Wrote:  ....And I don't like it when the bible accuse Eve for the sin of Adam!! And I don't think Adam did any sin Big Grin they ate couple of fruits, that doesn't make them criminals!!

I think Adam and Eve were given a test to disobey God .. this means that the have free well to obey or disobey..! And I believe God made this test to make them ready to be placed on earth and face other choices!

Okay, there's a big problem with this whole idea/narrative.

By the tale Adam and Eve (Lets not worry about the older tale that included Lilith) were created innocent. Perfect and innocent. They did not know of 'evil' or 'sin' or anything that was 'bad'. Nor even the outcomes/consequences of doing such things (Since, y'know, innocent). By such things... Adam ad Eve could not have anything resembling 'free will'. Since their created natures were essentially 'incomplete'.

So... without the understanding of the consequences of their actions... HOW could they possibly understand the out come of going against god's instructions?

Putting something in front of a child and simply saying "Don't do (X)!", with the child having NO IDEA as to what (X) even is... and then being all outraged when said child goes does (x) is.... well... 'Dickish' is the best/harshest descriptive word I can think of.

It's wrong and shows how primitive the people's were who created this woeful myth.

(27-10-2014 08:35 PM)Shamma Wrote:  That's what I believe Big Grin

That's great. I am hoping you're thinking about the points people are raising about what you say you believe and working through the problems with what you've posted.

Much cheers to you and yours.

exactly Thumbsup

What you said about the story of Adam and Eve is true..

they don't know the consequences of their actions so it's unfair to punish them!

The story is totally different in my book! My book says that Man was created to be placed on earth from the beginning .. the tree and the instruction given was only a test for them to "make their own choses" .. and that's the story in my book:

And We said, "O Adam, dwell, you and your wife, in Paradise and eat therefrom in [ease and] abundance from wherever you will. But do not approach this tree, lest you be among the wrongdoers."
But Satan caused them to slip out of it and removed them from that [condition] in which they had been. And We said, "Go down, [all of you], as enemies to one another, and you will have upon the earth a place of settlement and provision for a time."
Then Adam received from his Lord [some] words, and He accepted his repentance. Indeed, it is He who is the Accepting of repentance, the Merciful.
We said, "Go down from it, all of you. And when guidance comes to you from Me, whoever follows My guidance - there will be no fear concerning them, nor will they grieve.


As you can see it was a slip .. and they were forgiven immediately !

God said that Man was meant to be placed on earth from the beginning..

And , when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority."
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02-11-2014, 07:42 PM
RE: ok atheists think with me :)
(27-10-2014 08:42 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Blink

Let me give you a crumb...

A paper I wrote on this, to help you understand the whole Xtian Triune theory

###########
Professor V############
Christian Spirituality Vision REL 123
March 19 2014

The development of the Christian doctrine of the Trinity

For a church to be considered a New Testament church it shall accept the biblical New Testament as its sole authority for all matters of faith. A “true” biblical church shall not accept any authority for its faith and daily practice, outside of the New Testament Scriptures. This does not discard the importance of the Old Testament Scriptures by any means. The church is not based on the biblical Old Testament because that is the record of God’s dealing with Israel. In the New Testament you will find a specific pattern and instructions from God concerning the church. The followers of the New Testament church model believe in the irrefutable word of God, that the Bible is complete as written, and it is, “… Given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.” (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

New Testament church parishioners believe that any hierarchy outside of the local church, is unsupported by Scripture. They think that Christ is the head, and that the New Testament Scriptures are the “true” churches only sole authority. I always find it amusing that with all the religions in the world, multiple versions of God or gods, and various holy books and ideologies of creation, that the believer of each religion thinks the believers of other religions are wrong, and that their own belief is the truth, the will and the way of the one “true” God. Even within Christianity, if every Christian who ever called another Christian, not a “true” Christian was removed from earth, there would be no Christians.

The Congregational style of a New Testament church is basically a biblical form of church government. Final authority in a New Testament church rests with the delegation. Each member has an equal democratic vote. They believe that the Bible, specifically the New Testament teaches that churches are to be governed by their own congregation following strict biblical guidelines.

In Trinitarian theology, the father gives everything he has, his very being, as a free gift to his son. Since the Son has everything that the father has, then they are in fact equal (Albl 139). In the Old Testament, the Holy Spirit is closely associated with God’s gift of prophecy. For example, “the Lord took some of the spirit from Moses and gave it to the elders, and they were able to prophesy also (Num 11:25). In the New Testament, the Holy Spirit is closely associated with the creation of God’s son in human form. For example, Mary conceived Jesus not through ordinary human means, but “through the Holy Spirit” (Matt1:20). In essence, just as Jesus comes in the father’s name, so the Holy Spirit comes in Jesus’ name (Albl 150). I define the Holy Spirit as God’s breath, his very soul, that of which he can giveth away to create life itself.

The church understands such self-emptying on the part of God as simultaneously the fulfillment of human existence, whose transformative effects are extended in the church in the world through the work of the Holy Spirit (Mueller 44). As such, parishioners of the New Testament church believe that they can follow this example by sharing the Holy Spirit with others. This is “living through Christ” by spreading the good word, in line with strict interpretation of biblical reference.

In the New Testament, outside of the story of Christ in his teachings, is the insistent belief through Scripture that the end times or transition into the new world in the second coming of Christ to take his place as king of the world would occur at any moment. “That Christ would come soon is an expectation which appears even in the latter writings of the New Testament. It is present in almost every stratum” (Moule 141). A rationalist may posit that today things are going on exactly as they were before, and thus there will never be an end to the world. Believers in the New Testament think that the real mistake here is to make time the determining standard at all. A good analogy of this is that the Christian hope is not measured in terms of time, but in terms of the journey continuing to its completion; the incarnation. The question should not be when is the end of the world, but what can I do to be ready for it? (Moule 148).

Now let’s go back in time to the very formation, fabrication of the Christian faith, the Trinity concept and successful establishment of the Christian religion. We must begin with the immeasurable impact that Emperor Constantine had on the spread of Christianity, and successful suppression of incumbent Roman pagan beliefs. Legend has it that Emperor Constantine saw two stars cross in the sky, in which he took to be a sign from God that Christianity was the only true faith. While his conversion to Christianity in 312 was not truly the moment Christianity came to be the official religion of the Roman Empire, it definitely was one of the major contributing factors for its subsequent acceptance.

Emperor Constantine conducted a religious-based crusade against Licinius in a war to rescue Christians on the east from further persecution. In the years 312 to 313 Emperor Constantine began a systematic policy in which he gave honors, privileges and financial donations to the Christian church and their clergy. In 324, as the unchallenged controller of the East, he prohibited by Royal decree any cultic activities which until then fell under the traditional religions of the Roman Empire, and this is when the status of Christianity as the official religion of the state and its rulers was affirmed (Lieu 7).

Religious scholars concede that Emperor Constantine not only convened important council’s sessions, but also either presided over them, or appointed a Royal official to preside in his place. This reduced the very role of bishops and councils such as Nicaea and Tyre to utter insignificance by assimilating them to members of the Imperial consilium, whose advice was not binding on the Emperor. All decisions taken at the Nicene Council were made by Emperor Constantine alone, since he could completely disregard the advisory opinions of the bishops whom he had summoned to the Council (Lieu 8).

Some scholars contend that Emperor Constantine’s influence was minimal, and merely sat in on the councils out of personal interest. However, when we look at the Council of Nicaea of 359, we see that Emperor Constantine again took a prominent role of control in the theological debate. Once the foundation of Christianity as a predominant religion of the Empire had been successfully established, Emperor Constantine later relinquished some of his control and influence by putting a seal of approval on the rulings of bishops declared at councils. The governors of provinces were not even allowed to rescind what they had decided, for he said the priests of God were more trustworthy than any magistrate (Lieu 10).

We can trace back the very beginning of the entitlement mentality by church hierarchy to Emperor Constantine and his enabling policies. No matter what his crime, a bishop could only be deposed and exiled, not legally tortured and executed (Lieu 17). I am sure this was fundamental in developing the culture within the church of dealing with any indiscretions internally, and not invoking the authority of the legal system. This of course has led to much abuse throughout history. One has only to watch the news these days to see on a routine basis, some priest or other has been exposed for having performed a plethora of transgressions, hidden by the church by simply moving the clergy member to a new area. This mentality just exposes more people to being victimized.

On the basis of Christian faith and the Trinity concept; the father, the son and the Holy Spirit, the first Council of Nicaea in 325 called together by Emperor Constantine, worked to establish a settlement of the issue of the relationship between father and the son. The focus primarily was on defining Jesus Christ as a deity. Establishment of the Holy Spirit was largely unaddressed until after the father and son relationship was settled in 362. After Nicaea, some bishops continued to prefer a term which had been discussed and rejected by the Council: homoiousios, in the sense of the son ‘being of like substance’ with the father. There were other bishops who were antagonistic to the term homoiousios because it was not biblical (O’Collins 184). Seven years later, the Trinitarian terminology was officially adopted after first Council Constantinople.

In its letter to Pope Damascus, a post conciliar synod confessed ‘one divinity, power, or substance’ in ‘three most perfect hypostasesin’ (O’Collins 185). At the Trinitarian level, Constantinople I reaffirmed the Nicene Council confession of faith that the son was ’of one substance’ with the father, as well as teaching the divinity of the Holy Spirit (O’Collins 186). Thus, the official establishment of Christian doctrine regarding the Trinity of the father, the son, and the Holy Spirit was initiated.

Works Cited:

Mueller, J.J., Theological Foundations: Concepts and Methods for Understanding the Christian Faith. Winona: Anselm Academic, Christian Brothers Publications, 2011. Print.

Albl, Martin C. Reason, Faith, and Tradition: Explorations in Catholic Theology. Winona: Anselm Academic, Christian Brothers Publications, 2009. Print.

The Catholic Study Bible: The New American Bible 2nd ed. Oxford: Oxford University press, Inc., 2011. Print.

Moule, C. F. D., The birth of the New Testament. New York: Harper & Row, 1962. Print

Lieu, Samuel N. C., and Montserrat, Dominic, Constantine: History, Historiography, and Legend. London: Routledge, 2002. Print.

O'Collins, Gerald, Christology: A Biblical, Historical, and Systematic Study of Jesus. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2009. Print.

That's too long for a new mother to read Big GrinGasp ..

But thanx a lot for helping me to understand things .. I appreciate that!

I'll try to read your paper Drinking Beverage
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02-11-2014, 07:45 PM
RE: ok atheists think with me :)
(27-10-2014 10:53 PM)Shadow Fox Wrote:  damn it shamma, why did you have to revive this stupid fucking thread? Have you not learned that you lost already? At least do the decent thing and give up already and make a new thread about something else like everyone else does.

Cheese and Crackers.

Big GrinBig GrinBig Grin I see your point! I'm willing to write a new post.. I just want to read what people wrote here and I can't ignore some interesting posts like yours so I reply Angel

But I'll never post hear again if not necessary Big Grin !
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02-11-2014, 11:54 PM
RE: ok atheists think with me :)
(07-09-2014 02:17 PM)Shamma Wrote:  Hello Sleepy


atheists .. !

I really can't imagine that you guys don't believe on the judgement day!!

Do you really think that all theses life, creatures, humanity .. are going to "nowhere"

and exist for nothing .. Only for the purpose of existence??

Then why is everything matching ?? The circle of life .. animals plants food ... etc

every creature has its own environment and necessities for living..

What about human brains .. how intelligent ! How did this happen?? could it possibly be by chance , natural selection, evolution... !!

I really would like to think about these stuff with you guys.. just give me reasons why would someone not believe on a creator for all of this?? I mean really what makes you so sure .. and take the risk of disbelieving ??
Read a fuckin book.
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03-11-2014, 01:33 AM
RE: ok atheists think with me :)
(02-11-2014 07:37 PM)Shamma Wrote:  
(27-10-2014 10:28 PM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  Hello again! Big Grin


Okay, there's a big problem with this whole idea/narrative.

By the tale Adam and Eve (Lets not worry about the older tale that included Lilith) were created innocent. Perfect and innocent. They did not know of 'evil' or 'sin' or anything that was 'bad'. Nor even the outcomes/consequences of doing such things (Since, y'know, innocent). By such things... Adam ad Eve could not have anything resembling 'free will'. Since their created natures were essentially 'incomplete'.

So... without the understanding of the consequences of their actions... HOW could they possibly understand the out come of going against god's instructions?

Putting something in front of a child and simply saying "Don't do (X)!", with the child having NO IDEA as to what (X) even is... and then being all outraged when said child goes does (x) is.... well... 'Dickish' is the best/harshest descriptive word I can think of.

It's wrong and shows how primitive the people's were who created this woeful myth.


That's great. I am hoping you're thinking about the points people are raising about what you say you believe and working through the problems with what you've posted.

Much cheers to you and yours.

exactly Thumbsup

What you said about the story of Adam and Eve is true..

they don't know the consequences of their actions so it's unfair to punish them!

The story is totally different in my book! My book says that Man was created to be placed on earth from the beginning .. the tree and the instruction given was only a test for them to "make their own choses" .. and that's the story in my book:

And We said, "O Adam, dwell, you and your wife, in Paradise and eat therefrom in [ease and] abundance from wherever you will. But do not approach this tree, lest you be among the wrongdoers."
But Satan caused them to slip out of it and removed them from that [condition] in which they had been. And We said, "Go down, [all of you], as enemies to one another, and you will have upon the earth a place of settlement and provision for a time."
Then Adam received from his Lord [some] words, and He accepted his repentance. Indeed, it is He who is the Accepting of repentance, the Merciful.
We said, "Go down from it, all of you. And when guidance comes to you from Me, whoever follows My guidance - there will be no fear concerning them, nor will they grieve.


As you can see it was a slip .. and they were forgiven immediately !

God said that Man was meant to be placed on earth from the beginning..

And , when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority."

Nice made up story you got there, needs a few more dragons and some sex if you want HBO to pick it up, but other wise it's some fantastically average made up nonsense.

It is held that valour is the chiefest virtue and most dignifies the haver.
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03-11-2014, 01:34 AM (This post was last modified: 03-11-2014 02:07 AM by Stuffed_Assumption_Meringue.)
RE: ok atheists think with me :)
Edit: Did not notice how old the thread was and didn't bother to read the other pages before answering the OP. More fool me. If the OP is no longer worth discussing or has been addressed to everybodies satisfaction please ignore this post.

[Snip] Decided first sentence was pointlessly mean.
(07-09-2014 02:17 PM)Shamma Wrote:  I really can't imagine that you guys don't believe on the judgement day!!
Because belief in some kind of apocalypse is tied in with other things we don't believe in.

Quote:Do you really think that all theses life, creatures, humanity .. are going to "nowhere"
Yes.

Though "nowhere" is an inexact way of putting it. I don't believe that we're going "nowhere" it's closer to say that we can't leave here. That there is, evidently, nowhere to go.

Quote:and exist for nothing .. Only for the purpose of existence??
Also: Yes.

Though it's another inexact way of putting it. As your putting it, you're also existing for the sake of existing. When you die your consiousness will continue to exist and take joy in the things it currently takes joy in.

The difference is largely semantic but think of it as existing for all the reasons you currently exist. Just with an understanding that they're transient.

Quote:Then why is everything matching ?? The circle of life .. animals plants food ... etc
I'm not sure what you mean. Why wouldn't we have a consistent ecosystem? It is advantagious to be able to consume as many different things as possible and every organism has a similar biochemistry that facilitates "matching."

Quote:every creature has its own environment and necessities for living..
So?

Quote:What about human brains .. how intelligent ! How did this happen?? could it possibly be by chance , natural selection, evolution... !!
Because intelegence is an advantagious trait. If a monkey is smarter than another monkey it can collect more food. The three smartest monkeys can help each other to collect more food and so the smartest monkeys prosper.
Quote:I really would like to think about these stuff with you guys.. just give me reasons why would someone not believe on a creator for all of this??
(Assuming that "all this" refers to the universe as a whole rather than the forum. We know the forum had a creator.)

Personally: Because I haven't heard a compelling argument for any creator of the universe. So the most honest position to take is that there is no creator until one is demonstrated.
Quote:I mean really what makes you so sure .. and take the risk of disbelieving ??
I'm not sure that there is no creator. One could exist.

But you're not talking about a generic creator. You're talking about one who doles out punishment for a lack of belief and since your user name is arabic for proud I'll asume you mean the Islamic god.

Because I haven't heard a convincing arguement for its/ his/ her existence and because I don't see the world as being consistent with its/ his/ her attributes as described in the Quoran. (Not getting into specifics because I'm not as familiar with Islamic teachings as I should be.)

Soulless mutants of muscle and intent. There are billions of us; hardy, smart and dangerous. Shaped by millions of years of death. We are the definitive alpha predator. We build monsters of fire and stone. We bottled the sun. We nailed our god to a stick.

In man's struggle against the world, bet on the man.
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